Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 173909 times)

Offline Sam Finkelstein

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Offline presidentialplus

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1062 on: July 06, 2020, 06:07:52 PM »
https://twitter.com/agudahnews/status/1280260758174138368?s=21

I thought that trying to get a TRO was worth a shot, but  the tweet that "Federal Judge locks door on summer camp. In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer" is just plain wrong.

Neither the executive order nor the Judge's ruling was about denying Jewish kids their religious environment of choice. The Order was not aimed at frum camps or religion. It was a public health decision which happened to impact on us too. Nothing more.

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1063 on: July 06, 2020, 06:08:41 PM »
COLOR WAR
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Offline S209

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1064 on: July 06, 2020, 06:09:59 PM »
Wonder if the final answer for the poll  will end up being a fourth option: Yes first half (those who’ve already gone up) but no second (if they’re shut down ch”v)
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Offline YitzyS

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Offline NTorch

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1066 on: July 06, 2020, 06:17:27 PM »
Some language in this decision makes me cringe:

Quote
Plaintiffs have provided no factual allegations or evidence to indicate that the fact that only Jewish overnight camps have continued to plan to open for the summer leads to the conclusion that Defendant’s executive orders have targeted the Jewish faith. To the contrary, it is undisputed that Defendant’s ban on overnight camps applies equally to all such camps, regardless of the camps’ religious (or secular) nature. The fact that Plaintiffs have maintained a hope and willingness to operate or send their children to overnight camps this summer longer than most persons involved with secular or non-Jewish overnight camps does not somehow turn Defendant’s facially neutral executive order into impermissible targeting.

Quote
Plaintiffs also argue that Defendant’s exemptions for activities such as day camps and childcare facilities are comparable conduct to overnight camps. Try as the Court might to sincerely understand Plaintiffs’ analogy, the Court must ultimately admit that Plaintiffs’ analogy is weak. Although day camps and childcare facilities have congregate settings, they are significantly more limited than those settings present in overnight camps. Day camps’ congregate settings are traditionally limited to the dining facility, where campers usuallycongretate for just one meal a day, as compared to overnight camps where campers traditionally congregate for three meals a day and then congregate again (this time with a smaller group) for approximately eight hours in an enclosed area, usually for weeks on end. By nature, day camps and childcare facilities provide less opportunity for the transmission of the COVID-19 virus simply because the individual attendees spend significantly less time with their fellow campers as compared to overnight camps. As the State argues, groups of individuals contained within a confined sleeping area each night runs contrary to the public health principals that have helped New York State substantially reduce the transmission of the COVID-19 virus.

Quote
Moreover, Defendant argues that overnight camps are uniquely situated as potential vectors for the spread of the COVID-19 virus because overnight camps pose a great risk not only within itself, but to the local communities as well. This is because, unlike day camps or childcare facilities, where travel by campers is necessarily limited to a reasonable distance due to the need for them to return home at the end of the day, overnight camps involve significant long-distance travel and an influx of people from multiple areas to a more remote location where those campers will become a part of the community, from a practical standpoint, for a significant period of time. This can create burdens on local resources that are not present with day camps or childcare facilities. For example, Defendant cites to the circumstances in Sullivan County, located in the Catskills region of New York State, where Defendant estimates that approximately sixty-two percent of the Jewish overnight camps are located. (Dkt. No. 25, Attach. 1, at ⁋⁋ 9-14.) According to Defendant, Sullivan County has only one hospital, with two locations throughout the entire county, in addition to ten Article 28 diagnostic treatment centers and hospital extension clinic sites. (Id. at 10, 13.) In total, Sullivan County has approximately 169 licensed beds, thirteen intensive-care-unit beds, and fifteen certified beds that can provide both acute and subacute rehabilitation services. (Id. at 11-12.) At oral argument, Plaintiffs explained that in a usual summer, approximately forty-two thousand campers attended approximately fifty to sixty Jewish overnight camps located in New York State. (Hearing Transcript.) Although a significant drop off in these numbers is expected due to a truncated summer and concerns over the COVID-19 virus (Hearing Transcript), should an outbreak occur at the camps, the situation could overrun the hospitals within Sullivan County and require hundreds of individual children to be quarantined at the individual camps, potentially hundreds of miles away from their families

Quote
In this case, Defendant’s executive orders bar all overnight camps from opening during the summer of 2020. Instead of explaining why Jewish overnight camps are being treated differently than are secular overnight camps, Plaintiffs (with all due respect) confuse Defendant’s public comments seemingly showing support for the rights implicated by the mass protests over the death of George Floyd with Defendant’s alleged disregard for religion in failing to grant a similar exemption to Jewish overnight camps. (Dkt. No. 7, Attach. 2, at 9-11.) Simply stated, the Court finds that permitting children to sleep in groups in enclosed spaces for eight hours per day in overnight camps is not sufficiently comparable to permitting conscious adults to shelter for shorter periods of time inside theater and museum lobbies during mass protests. For example, at the time of this writing, although many mass protestors appear to have been violating social distancing protocols by engaging in various outdoor protests, no evidence has emerged that protestors have been so often assembling in such close proximity in enclosed spaces for such a long period of time that reasonably compares to the way children typically sleep in cabins at overnight camp.

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1067 on: July 06, 2020, 06:17:29 PM »




Neither the executive order nor the Judge's ruling was about denying Jewish kids their religious environment of choice. The Order was not aimed at frum camps or religion. It was a public health decision which happened to impact on us too. Nothing more.

Incorrect. Frum people/organizations were making the most noise and were the ones to file the lawsuit. Cuomo did it precisely to show them he's boss.

Offline boro boy

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Offline boro boy

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1069 on: July 06, 2020, 06:19:47 PM »
BREAKING: Judge Denies Injunction to New York Sleepaway Camps
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Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1070 on: July 06, 2020, 06:20:22 PM »
Nothing new filed on the docket since Friday.

Keep in mind the old joke - the only difference between Hashem and a Federal District Court Judge is that Hashem does not think that he is a Federal District Court Judge.

LOL  ;D

I thought that trying to get a TRO was worth a shot, but  the tweet that "Federal Judge locks door on summer camp. In devastating move, denies TRO - parents of thousands of Jewish kids denied religious environment of choice this summer" is just plain wrong.

Neither the executive order nor the Judge's ruling was about denying Jewish kids their religious environment of choice. The Order was not aimed at frum camps or religion. It was a public health decision which happened to impact on us too. Nothing more.

I don't agree either with their wording, however they are just wording it the way the lawsuit was filed and it was filed that way because that's how they somehow felt they had the best shot at achieving their goal.

This was absolutely not a public health decision IMHO. It was a totally political decision. If it would be public health decision they would have made the SAME EXACT decision for all those mass protests!!! But nooooooo, those get totally different standards applied...

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1071 on: July 06, 2020, 06:21:53 PM »
This was absolutely not a public health decision IMHO. It was a totally political decision. If it would be public health decision they would have made the SAME EXACT decision for all those mass protests!!! But nooooooo, those get totally different standards applied...
Give it a break!!!
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Offline S209

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1072 on: July 06, 2020, 06:23:55 PM »
Some language in this decision makes me cringe:
Wow. Cringe-worthy indeed.
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Offline yaakov35

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1073 on: July 06, 2020, 06:27:42 PM »
Wow. Cringe-worthy indeed.
Yep, pathetic. Doesn't seem like they stand a chance at actually winning this law suit

Offline Abebee

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1074 on: July 06, 2020, 06:30:04 PM »
They are opening tomorrow (back to their regular grounds)

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1075 on: July 06, 2020, 06:30:48 PM »
Wonder if the final answer for the poll  will end up being a fourth option: Yes first half (those who’ve already gone up) but no second (if they’re shut down ch”v)

You would need to add "in NY" to the poll because out of state camps are operating legally and don't run the risk of being shut down (hopefully).
Give it a break!!!

Excuse me? I'm entitled to my opinion and I respect yours. If you can't respect mine then you can opt out of this discussion.

Offline boro boy

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1077 on: July 06, 2020, 06:33:58 PM »


Ouch.  :'(

Yep, pathetic. Doesn't seem like they stand a chance at actually winning this law suit

Double ouch... Unfortunately based on the Judge's stance it seems they have a real uphill battle using their current argument(s).

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1078 on: July 06, 2020, 06:35:05 PM »
Excuse me? I'm entitled to my opinion and I respect yours. If you can't respect mine then you can opt out of this discussion.
I didn't say I didn't respect your opinion. Back to your regular scheduled program.
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #1079 on: July 06, 2020, 06:36:51 PM »
Ouch.  :'(

Double ouch... Unfortunately based on the Judge's stance it seems they have a real uphill battle using their current argument(s).
Hate to say it but it was clear to anyone who looked at this objectively from the beginning that it was always a real uphill battle, if a battle at all
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