Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?

[Joel]

I work for one of the big camps  got a phone call today that we should start opening next week

Can you pull permits to open the camp?

[Boruch Parnes]

Can you pull permits to open the camp?

we only get CO when we pass inspection

[zale]

we only get CO when we pass inspection

Is this in Sullivan County?

[coffeebean]

Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?

[moko]

Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?

What happens when camp is over in middle of an outbreak?

[AsherO]

Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?

Without knowing herd immunity numbers, this is risky. Let’s say a camp with had 1k kids and only 10% are immune. One kid brings an infection with him to camp and it spreads slowly, keep in mind incubation period of 3-14 days. By the time the kids leave at the end of 1-2 months, they could send home 10 kids (or more) carrying an active infection out to a population that is still vulnerable.

[zale]

Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?

What about the bus drivers?

It’s possible that states will allow camps to open out of desperation. People’s psychological health is suddenly in the center of the conversation now.

However, it’s also possible that they will place certain restrictions, such as limits of 100 campers or so per camp, and no field trips. Would you open under such conditions?

[Mo2]

Received an update that CGI Montreal not opening was inauthentic information.

was this everyone's news source about them not opening from April 1st?
http://nwpedia.club/show/1201697/camp-gan-israel-montreal-will-not-open-this-year-do-to-the-coronavirus-65047

[coffeebean]

Without knowing herd immunity numbers, this is risky. Let’s say a camp with had 1k kids and only 10% are immune. One kid brings an infection with him to camp and it spreads slowly, keep in mind incubation period of 3-14 days. By the time the kids leave at the end of 1-2 months, they could send home 10 kids (or more) carrying an active infection out to a population that is still vulnerable.

Didn't think of that, valid point.

[AsherO]

It’s possible that states will allow camps to open out of desperation. People’s psychological health is suddenly in the center of the conversation now.

I’ve seen the psychological toll mentioned, but is it really center of conversation?

[fineguy]

I just want to jump in and say that many parents have paid money toward summer camp already.
If camps do not end up opening they should refund the money.
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't pay camps to operate on Zoom.

If they do not operate in the usual manner, and refuse to refund, I will likely contest it with my credit card, halachically permitting.

[Dan]

halachically permitting.

What does the contract say?

[fineguy]

What does the contract say?

It was prior to Corona.
I simply signed up online. I don't remember the details - there may not have been any.
Note this was for day camp, not sleep away which may have more rigorous  fine print.

[ari3]

What does the contract say?

Good point.

I don't think any of my children's camp contracts addressed what happens if camp doesn't open. (definitely didn't address trying to provide camp thru zoom).

[fineguy]

Good point.

I don't think any of my children's camp contracts addressed what happens if camp doesn't open. (definitely didn't address trying to provide camp thru zoom).

I have a hard time understanding the legitimacy of not refunding down-payments or partial/full payments if there is no camp. Its just crazy. 
Although camps may try to seek out ways to make it be that way.
I really have no intention of playing along

[ari3]

Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?

While this a nice argument in theory would you be willing to take responsibility for hundreds of children based on this? Before this all started many people said (including some doctors) that it doesn't affect young people so let's keep going and just make sure the old people stay isolated. Unfortunately we know what happened with that. While the theory has good points It's nice for DDF but practically camp is not going to happen unless the virus passes by then. (not to mention good luck trying to sell that to Sullivan County to get the permits).

[S209]

I have a hard time understanding the legitimacy of not refunding down-payments or partial/full payments if there is no camp. Its just crazy. 
Although camps may try to seek out ways to make it be that way.
I really have no intention of playing along

If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze

[Yard sale]

If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze

Not if the credit card was authorized to be charged in installments or there were head checks which were deposited after the ones was apparent (March?)

[S209]

Not if the credit card was authorized to be charged in installments or there were head checks which were deposited after the ones was apparent (March?)

That’s probably true, but OP was talking about getting his deposit refunded. For future installments he has every right to stop them in advance, but if they charge them now without being told not to he won’t be able to be Motze them either.

[Let3]

If it’s Makas Medina then you’ll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze

Aylor
But idk if they can claim makos medina on something they didn’t even begin putting together yet (assuming most start after pesach - as I’ve heard) and haven’t lost anything yet besides future profits for something they will not be operating.
I may be wrong...