Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 56196 times)

Offline ari3

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2020, 02:35:59 PM »
Hope I'm not biased since a lot of my income comes from a sleepaway camp. I see more of a positive than negative outcome in opening camps. What's wrong with opening a camp with 1,000 kids who are not vulnerable to the virus? Counslers are usually in their teens or 20s. What your doing is taking the kids away from people who are most vulnerable (relatives, grandparents, neighbors, etc.), and isolating them in a place where they won't be in contact with anyone who can really be affected. The problem is Head Cousler/Owner. In the camp I work with the Head Counselor already had the virus. So if they work out a system where they social distance the owner and the 2 or 3 other people on campus that are over 40, I don't see the big deal in opening. Thoughts?

While this a nice argument in theory would you be willing to take responsibility for hundreds of children based on this? Before this all started many people said (including some doctors) that it doesn't affect young people so let's keep going and just make sure the old people stay isolated. Unfortunately we know what happened with that. While the theory has good points It's nice for DDF but practically camp is not going to happen unless the virus passes by then. (not to mention good luck trying to sell that to Sullivan County to get the permits).

Online S209

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2020, 02:40:54 PM »
I have a hard time understanding the legitimacy of not refunding down-payments or partial/full payments if there is no camp. Its just crazy. 
Although camps may try to seek out ways to make it be that way.
I really have no intention of playing along
If itís Makas Medina then youíll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2020, 02:46:38 PM »
If itís Makas Medina then youíll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze

Not if the credit card was authorized to be charged in installments or there were head checks which were deposited after the ones was apparent (March?)

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2020, 02:48:59 PM »
Not if the credit card was authorized to be charged in installments or there were head checks which were deposited after the ones was apparent (March?)
Thatís probably true, but OP was talking about getting his deposit refunded. For future installments he has every right to stop them in advance, but if they charge them now without being told not to he wonít be able to be Motze them either.
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Offline Let3

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2020, 03:23:54 PM »
If itís Makas Medina then youíll have a hard time finding a Halachic basis to dispute a charge. You will be the motze
Aylor
But idk if they can claim makos medina on something they didnít even begin putting together yet (assuming most start after pesach - as Iíve heard) and havenít lost anything yet besides future profits for something they will not be operating.
I may be wrong...

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2020, 03:42:09 PM »
Aylor
But idk if they can claim makos medina on something they didnít even begin putting together yet (assuming most start after pesach - as Iíve heard) and havenít lost anything yet besides future profits for something they will not be operating.
I may be wrong...
They are taking a loss on the campus plus any deposits for trips, supplies etc. as well as maintenance and year round staff.

Besides, who says they need a loss to declare Makas Medina?
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2020, 07:06:38 PM »
Thatís probably true, but OP was talking about getting his deposit refunded. For future installments he has every right to stop them in advance, but if they charge them now without being told not to he wonít be able to be Motze them either.

Is that so? I would think that would be tefisah shelo be reshus once itís obvious there is an issue with opening

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2020, 07:07:52 PM »
Is that so? I would think that would be tefisah shelo be reshus once itís obvious there is an issue with opening
How shelo bershus? He explicitly authorized payment and hasnít retracted his authorization
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2020, 08:03:22 PM »
How shelo bershus? He explicitly authorized payment and hasnít retracted his authorization

Umdena that he doesnít realize that his cc is still being charged/ headcheck is still being cashed. No one pays for nothing willingly.

Seem to recall one of The Rabbonim guidelines specifically addressed headchecks. Iíll try to find it later.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2020, 08:08:39 PM »
Umdena that he doesnít realize that his cc is still being charged/ headcheck is still being cashed. No one pays for nothing willingly.

Seem to recall one of The Rabbonim guidelines specifically addressed headchecks. Iíll try to find it later.
They addressed head checks being deposited by a babysitter for a month in which we already know there will be no services performed. Here we are discussing a case where neither side is certain if it will, but if the father recants permission he will forfeit his previous deposit and thus lose if camp actually opens, or he can leave it as is and let it be cashed but will be forfeiting this money as well should the camp be forced not to open.

Again, the father certainly has a right to withdraw authorization to charge his card or cancel the checks, but if he does not withdraw permission, the camp would seemingly be fully within itsí rights to cash them assuming they honestly believe they will be opening.
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2020, 10:21:16 PM »
They addressed head checks being deposited by a babysitter for a month in which we already know there will be no services performed. Here we are discussing a case where neither side is certain if it will, but if the father recants permission he will forfeit his previous deposit and thus lose if camp actually opens, or he can leave it as is and let it be cashed but will be forfeiting this money as well should the camp be forced not to open.

Again, the father certainly has a right to withdraw authorization to charge his card or cancel the checks, but if he does not withdraw permission, the camp would seemingly be fully within itsí rights to cash them assuming they honestly believe they will be opening.

If they truly honestly believe they are opening, not just wishful thinking thatís a different story. There is obviously no umdina. Conversely, I would be surprised if a beis din would allow a camp  to keep the deposit gratis in the event that they do open when the father is willing to send but withdrew his permission to cash the headchecks in the interim merely to protect his interest in this situation, not to be chozer...

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2020, 10:48:31 PM »
Looks positive

Offline zale

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2020, 10:52:47 PM »
Looks positive
https://collive.com/summer-camps-remain-in-limbo-awaiting-government-instructions/

I think we need to first know what the ďprecautionsĒ are. Per the above article, if the rules make it impossible for the camps to function, itís as good as closed.

Offline Afrages6

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2020, 11:25:13 PM »
https://collive.com/summer-camps-remain-in-limbo-awaiting-government-instructions/

I think we need to first know what the ďprecautionsĒ are. Per the above article, if the rules make it impossible for the camps to function, itís as good as closed.
If the kids are gonna be spending 8 weeks together in a camp Iíd imagine that social distancing wouldnít apply.

Offline ari3

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2020, 11:39:58 PM »
If the kids are gonna be spending 8 weeks together in a camp Iíd imagine that social distancing wouldnít apply.
It would be practically impossible to have camp with social distancing. Problem is if kids are asymptomatic it can slowly spread and they will come home with it.