Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 173885 times)

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #620 on: June 21, 2020, 01:36:23 AM »
stolin camp will be this year IYH in Lenox, MA 01240
thanks to gov cuomo

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #621 on: June 21, 2020, 01:43:06 AM »
stolin camp will be this year IYH in Lenox, MA 01240
thanks to gov cuomo
Camps might just go out of state .

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #622 on: June 21, 2020, 03:15:55 AM »
If no one is allowed in or out of the camp then what is the need for constant testing?
The first tests aren't anywhere near 100% reliable (false negatives, impossible to effectively isolate everybody for 14 days, some cases take more than 14 days).

It is not viable to enforce a zero entry policy, and even if it was, food deliveries can bring it in.

Pooled sample testing is very simple & cheap
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #623 on: June 21, 2020, 09:05:16 AM »
The first tests aren't anywhere near 100% reliable (false negatives, impossible to effectively isolate everybody for 14 days, some cases take more than 14 days).

It is not viable to enforce a zero entry policy, and even if it was, food deliveries can bring it in.

Pooled sample testing is very simple & cheap

What do you gain with pooled sample testing? What do the contingency plans look like?

If any new positive tests for PCR, you strictly isolate that person (and test for antibodies?)? What’s next? Test the whole camp? Send home everyone who is PCR-negative?

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Offline Lurker

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #624 on: June 21, 2020, 09:09:40 AM »
If no one is allowed in or out of the camp then what is the need for constant testing?

I think people are expressing too much confidence in camps saying "no one in or out." It's not feasible, and shouldn't be relied upon. There most definitely needs to be contingency plans.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #625 on: June 21, 2020, 10:02:54 AM »
What do you gain with pooled sample testing?

Cheaper than individual testing
What do the contingency plans look like?

If any new positive tests for PCR, you strictly isolate that person (and test for antibodies?)? What’s next? Test the whole camp? Send home everyone who is PCR-negative?
Depending on the location & facilities something to the tune of:

Immediate segregation into limited size capsules
Sanitation.
Individual PCR tests for everybody.
Isolation plan for positive cases - joint capsule/hospital/home/individual isolation
Camp disbanding transportation plan / continuing in capsules until additional cases are ruled out


All with a written plan of action and chain of command & responsibility.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #626 on: June 21, 2020, 10:30:53 AM »

Cheaper than individual testing Depending on the location & facilities something to the tune of:

Immediate segregation into limited size capsules
Sanitation.
Individual PCR tests for everybody.
Isolation plan for positive cases - joint capsule/hospital/home/individual isolation
Camp disbanding transportation plan / continuing in capsules until additional cases are ruled out


All with a written plan of action and chain of command & responsibility.
This sound like protocol for an active war zone. These camps are for young kids.... most are either gonna open anyway or do day camp without these draconian measures.

Offline Sam Finkelstein

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #627 on: June 21, 2020, 10:37:56 AM »
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #628 on: June 21, 2020, 10:42:23 AM »
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.
Could of seen the same information in this thread. Not sure why anyone is assuming the bar for a judge to temporarily reverse a government decision is lower than the bar to permanently reverse it... If anything, in order to grant a TRO & reverse the law without hearing, the judge must be even more convinced he will obviously rule that way ultimately even after the hearing
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Offline Afrages6

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #629 on: June 21, 2020, 10:45:06 AM »
Could of seen the same information in this thread. Not sure why anyone is assuming the bar for a judge to temporarily reverse a government decision is lower than the bar to permanently reverse it... If anything, in order to grant a TRO & reverse the law without hearing, the judge must be even more convinced he will obviously rule that way ultimately even after the hearing
A TRO in the case of irreparable damage is decided by wether there is a show of cause. It’s a much lower bar then you are suggesting.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #630 on: June 21, 2020, 10:56:36 AM »
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.

I don't know why there's an assumption that this won't get shoved to the front of the docket if the TRO is approved.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 11:02:47 AM by Lurker »
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Offline Afrages6

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #631 on: June 21, 2020, 11:01:26 AM »
I don't know why there's an assumption that this won't get shoved to the front of the docket of the TRO is approved.
TRO will be immediately appealed by the state.

Offline elya

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #632 on: June 21, 2020, 11:34:02 AM »
It is not viable to enforce a zero entry policy, and even if it was, food deliveries can bring it in.
Spoke to a Camp director whose grounds are located in PA, and plans on doing just this.
All food will be delivered before the start of Camp.

Any person that leaves grounds will not be allowed back in.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #633 on: June 21, 2020, 11:37:16 AM »
Food for 2 months stored on premises? I have a bridge to sell you
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #634 on: June 21, 2020, 11:45:35 AM »
Spoke to a Camp director whose grounds are located in PA, and plans on doing just this.
All food will be delivered before the start of Camp.

Any person that leaves grounds will not be allowed back in.

All food and activities being on camp premises before camp starts is a Herculean task. Doable, but unlikely. Keeping control of all the staff, both those who interact with the kids (counselors, activity leaders) and support (admin, maintenance, kitchen), is also doable but unlikely. Then you have to account for intangibles. If a kid has to go to the hospital, the kid won't be allowed back. Who picks up his things? What about the staff member(s) who accompany him there? Does the camp have all the necessary medical supplies and personnel on site for the full duration of camp?

While it may be technically possible to absolutely lock down a camp with no one in or out, anyone going to those lengths should also have contingency plans in place, because s**t happens.
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #635 on: June 21, 2020, 11:46:23 AM »
TRO will be immediately appealed by the state.
A TRO cannot be appealed
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #636 on: June 21, 2020, 11:48:37 AM »
if its out off NY let it rip through, who cares its harmless to kids, transmittable rate is very low, there is a study that suggests that children cant transmit the virus to others, the plan was only to please the gov which didn't work out well
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Offline yaakov35

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #637 on: June 21, 2020, 12:05:06 PM »
if its out off NY let it rip through, who cares its harmless to kids, transmittable rate is very low, there is a study that suggests that children cant transmit the virus to others, the plan was only to please the gov which didn't work out well
Most of them had it so it won't even rip through but ya most camps that are out of state will take very few if any precautions.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #638 on: June 21, 2020, 12:24:57 PM »
A TRO in the case of irreparable damage is decided by wether there is a show of cause. It’s a much lower bar then you are suggesting.
Yep, the lawsuit is meant to appease people like you who don't know better


https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/woman-advocate/practice/2018/preliminary-injuction-relief/

Quote
Although the test for obtaining a TRO or PI may vary slightly across jurisdictions, generally a plaintiff seeking preliminary injunctive relief must satisfy a four-factor test: (1) that he or she is likely to succeed on the merits of his claims; (2) that he or she is likely to suffer irreparable harm without preliminary relief; (3) the balance of equities between the parties support an injunction; and (4) the injunction is in the public interest


https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1239.pdf

Quote
A plaintiff seeking a preliminary injunction must estab- lish that he is likely to succeed on the merits, that he is likely to suffer irreparable harm in the absence of prelimi- nary relief, that the balance of equities tips in his favor, and that an injunction is in the public interest.....

The standard for a preliminary injunction is essentially the same as for a permanent injunction with the exception that the plaintiff must show a likelihood of success on the merits rather than actual success

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Offline AsherO

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #639 on: June 21, 2020, 03:46:18 PM »
All with a written plan of action and chain of command & responsibility.

Because I have a lot of faith in a camp where the bottom of the chain are children, the enforcement (counselors/staff) are older children, the head staff are youngsters with no operational experience beyond ad-hoc camp stuff that isn’t usually life-and-death and the director is basically the only adult around.
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