Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 173780 times)

Offline Mikes@Micro

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 994
  • Total likes: 328
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #640 on: June 21, 2020, 03:55:47 PM »
Because I have a lot of faith in a camp where the bottom of the chain are children, the enforcement (counselors/staff) are older children, the head staff are youngsters with no operational experience beyond ad-hoc camp stuff that isn’t usually life-and-death and the director is basically the only adult around.
Good point many teenage counselors will laugh the whole thing off....
While some directors are "legends" some are seen as the "bad cop" which will make it cool not to listen
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #641 on: June 21, 2020, 04:50:14 PM »
Because I have a lot of faith in a camp where the bottom of the chain are children, the enforcement (counselors/staff) are older children, the head staff are youngsters with no operational experience beyond ad-hoc camp stuff that isn’t usually life-and-death and the director is basically the only adult around.
Probably still more competent than a lot of government organizations
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3764
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #642 on: June 21, 2020, 05:47:16 PM »
It would seem some missed the part that day camps are opening in NY.

Offline lubaby

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5335
  • Total likes: 736
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #643 on: June 21, 2020, 07:45:02 PM »
Spoke to lawyer over Shabbos about the lawsuit. They're hoping to get a temporary restraining order and by the time the case is actually heard it would be moot anyway.
Reminds me of:
Quote
A House on the Roof

Levy built a sukkah on the roof of his apartment building several days before the eight-day holiday of Sukkot began. After the holiday began, the landlord noticed it and demanded that it be removed immediately, claiming it was a violation of the terms of the building lease. Levy refused, telling the landlord that since this was a religious observance, he had the right to build the sukkah there.

The landlord disagreed and took the case to court.

In court, the landlord argued that the sukkah was unsightly, against the terms of the lease, and was a fire hazard. Levy argued that his religious rights would be ignored. The judge, who happened to be Jewish, listened patiently and then offered his verdict.

“I agree with the landlord in this case, and I therefore rule that you have ten days from today to take down your hut.”

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #644 on: June 21, 2020, 07:57:17 PM »

I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Online Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3764
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #645 on: June 21, 2020, 08:00:28 PM »
I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”
IIRC that's where it's from.

Offline joeberg

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 745
  • Total likes: 35
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #646 on: June 21, 2020, 09:18:56 PM »
I think it’s a true story about Rabbi Herman from “All for the Boss”
The judge was Judge Silver Rabbi Amos Bunim's FIL a frum yid.

Offline Mikes@Micro

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 994
  • Total likes: 328
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #647 on: June 21, 2020, 10:45:42 PM »
The sukkah story happened to a friend...
Had his sukkah on his deck all year as he wanted privacy from the apartment building in his backyard. Before sukkos they noticed him "making modifications" (schach) and upon researching discovered that it wasn't a illegal.

Filed zoning claim and non jewish judge gave him the standard 15 days....
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Mtrasb

  • Guest
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #648 on: June 22, 2020, 01:36:12 AM »
Heard this hilarious rumor:

A Satmar camp will be allowed to open in NY State because it is not registered as a camp rather as an... Orphanage!

(Apparently only one orphan is required for it to be legally considered an orphanage. Sadly almost every community is able to fit that criteria)

If anyone can verify this please do.
Apparently this isn't happening in the end.

They were scared off by Cuomo's threat of banning the camp for good.

Online NTorch

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 2209
  • Total likes: 1024
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 68
    • View Profile
  • Location: West Hempstead
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #649 on: June 22, 2020, 09:07:40 AM »
A TRO cannot be appealed

Sorry, that's absolutely false. Both in State and Federal Court you can appeal injunctive relief.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #650 on: June 22, 2020, 09:32:49 AM »
Sorry, that's absolutely false. Both in State and Federal Court you can appeal injunctive relief.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/temporary_restraining_order
Quote
Judges' decisions on whether or not to issue a TRO may not be appealed.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online NTorch

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 2209
  • Total likes: 1024
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 68
    • View Profile
  • Location: West Hempstead
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #651 on: June 22, 2020, 10:05:36 AM »
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/temporary_restraining_order

I have successfully appealed TROs. There is a procedure to do so, regardless of what is in the wiki.

Here is language from a Second Circuit Court of Appeals (the Court which would hear the appeal from an Order in this case) specifically permitting an appeal from a TRO.

Quote
As a general matter, appeal lies only from final judgments of the district court, 28 U.S.C. § 1291, or interlocutory orders that grant or refuse injunctions. 28 U.S.C. § 1292(a)(1). As a TRO is interlocutory and is not technically an injunction, it is ordinarily not appealable. See Hoh v. Pepsico, Inc., 491 F.2d 556, 560 (2d Cir.1974). However, when a grant or denial of a TRO “might have a ‘serious, perhaps irreparable, consequence,’ and ... can be ‘effectually challenged’ only by immediate appeal,” we may exercise appellate jurisdiction. Carson v. American Brands, Inc., 450 U.S. 79, 84, 101 S.Ct. 993, 996–97, 67 L.Ed.2d 59 (1981) (citation omitted); United States v. Miller, 14 F.3d 761, 764 (2d Cir.1994). Because the district court's order met this standard, this court had jurisdiction to entertain Green Point's appeal, as well as the motion for a stay that accompanied it.

Romer v. Green Point Sav. Bank, 27 F.3d 12, 15 (2d Cir. 1994)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 10:11:47 AM by NTorch »

Online NTorch

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 2209
  • Total likes: 1024
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 68
    • View Profile
  • Location: West Hempstead
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #652 on: June 22, 2020, 10:09:09 AM »
They did file their motion for a TRO this morning.

I don't know yet when it will be heard by Judge Sharpe as he has not signed it yet.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #653 on: June 22, 2020, 10:37:32 AM »
I have successfully appealed TROs. There is a procedure to do so, regardless of what is in the wiki.

Here is language from a Second Circuit Court of Appeals (the Court which would hear the appeal from an Order in this case) specifically permitting an appeal from a TRO.
Interesting. The language of the law only allows appeals on final decisions (which includes injunctive relief but not preliminarily injunctive relief that you incorrectly lumped together)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1291

Quote
The courts of appeals (other than the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit) shall have jurisdiction of appeals from all final decisions of the district courts of the United States,


Case law developed to allow some departure from the strict language, but per SCOTUS the criteria are

Quote
Thus, immediate appeal is confined to those decisions that are conclusive, that resolve important questions completely separate from the merits, and that would render such questions effectively unreviewable on appeal from the final judgment in the underlying action.

As such, this TRO would normally not be appealable.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocutory_appeal


I don't know yet when it will be heard by Judge Sharpe as he has not signed it yet.
Let's see if he'll even hear it before camp
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online NTorch

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 2209
  • Total likes: 1024
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 68
    • View Profile
  • Location: West Hempstead
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #654 on: June 22, 2020, 10:50:31 AM »
Interesting. The language of the law only allows appeals on final decisions (which includes injunctive relief but not preliminarily injunctive relief that you incorrectly lumped together)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1291
 

Case law developed to allow some departure from the strict language, but per SCOTUS the criteria are

As such, this TRO would normally not be appealable.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocutory_appeal
Let's see if he'll even hear it before camp

I hate to come across elitist, but just like I am not a doctor and should not get into a debate with one about what I found on WebMD, your comparisons and attempted parsing of the law is not correct.

There are three forms of injunctive relief - a TRO which can last 14 days unless extended, a preliminary injunction which issues during a case and can effectively end a controversy and a permanent injunction which will continue beyond the case itself.

All three are forms of injunctive relief with different standards for issuance of an injunction and appealability.

While a final decision or a decision on an injunction is appealable as of right, all three forms of injunctive relief are appealable, but it varies as to whether an appellant will be able to meet the applicable standard. Again, I am not saying this because I found it on google, its because I do this for a living.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #655 on: June 22, 2020, 10:57:26 AM »
I hate to come across elitist, but just like I am not a doctor and should not get into a debate with one about what I found on WebMD, your comparisons and attempted parsing of the law is not correct.

There are three forms of injunctive relief - a TRO which can last 14 days unless extended, a preliminary injunction which issues during a case and can effectively end a controversy and a permanent injunction which will continue beyond the case itself.

All three are forms of injunctive relief with different standards for issuance of an injunction and appealability.

While a final decision is appealable as of right, all three forms of injunctive relief are appealable, but it varies as to whether an appellant will be able to meet the applicable standard. Again, I am not saying this because I found it on google, its because I do this for a living.
All good and fine, but this
Sorry, that's absolutely false. Both in State and Federal Court you can appeal injunctive relief.
Is an incorrect statement in response to my claim that a temporary restraining order cannot be appealed, since there are cases where an injunctive relief can be appealed (same as any court decision), but a TRO/Preliminary Injunctive Relief cannot be appealed.

If you practice this for a living, surely you know how laughable this whole legal effort it.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yaakov35

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 713
  • Total likes: 162
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #656 on: June 22, 2020, 10:58:37 AM »
I hate to come across elitist, but just like I am not a doctor and should not get into a debate with one about what I found on WebMD, your comparisons and attempted parsing of the law is not correct.

There are three forms of injunctive relief - a TRO which can last 14 days unless extended, a preliminary injunction which issues during a case and can effectively end a controversy and a permanent injunction which will continue beyond the case itself.

All three are forms of injunctive relief with different standards for issuance of an injunction and appealability.

While a final decision or a decision on an injunction is appealable as of right, all three forms of injunctive relief are appealable, but it varies as to whether an appellant will be able to meet the applicable standard. Again, I am not saying this because I found it on google, its because I do this for a living.
As you may or may not have realized the vast majority of people talking about covid/camps are people who have nothing to do with the field and rather became experts while reading articles. I'm not super familiar with TRO but I do know they can be appealed. Its fascinating how people can be so convinced they are right based off Wikipedia articles and minimal knowledge of a topic

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #657 on: June 22, 2020, 10:59:47 AM »
As you may or may not have realized the vast majority of people talking about covid/camps are people who have nothing to do with the field and rather became experts while reading articles. I'm not super familiar with TRO but I do know they can be appealed. Its fascinating how people can be so convinced they are right based off Wikipedia articles and minimal knowledge of a topic
Better than the people who became experts without reading anything, and better than people who knock the messenger when they can't disprove the message.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 11:05:42 AM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online NTorch

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 2209
  • Total likes: 1024
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 68
    • View Profile
  • Location: West Hempstead
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #658 on: June 22, 2020, 11:07:53 AM »
All good and fine, but this Is an incorrect statement in response to my claim that a temporary restraining order cannot be appealed, since there are cases where an injunctive relief can be appealed (same as any court decision), but a TRO/Preliminary Injunctive Relief cannot be appealed.

If you practice this for a living, surely you know how laughable this whole legal effort it.

When I first posted the Complaint on this thread on June 18 (already downloaded 22 times), I said "I don't think it has much of a chance for success, but at least they tried." https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115525.msg2278073#msg2278073

Also as per above, a TRO can be appealed (see Romer v. Green Point Sav. Bank, 27 F.3d 12, 15 (2d Cir. 1994)

Online Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3764
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #659 on: June 22, 2020, 11:38:18 AM »
Camp's motion for TRO filed today.