Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 173739 times)

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #840 on: June 25, 2020, 09:41:37 AM »
And just like that, everything American Jews do in 2020 became a yaahoreg v'al yaaover.

He didn't say it became. He said there's an element.

So what's your alternative, especially for hundreds of kids at risk one of which he described?

Online B.D.Da'ehu

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #841 on: June 25, 2020, 09:42:17 AM »
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Is this the guy from those yiddish insane whatsapp rants?

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #842 on: June 25, 2020, 09:53:20 AM »
Is this the guy from those yiddish insane whatsapp rants?

Yes, how did you know??  ::)  ::)

Except I've never sent out WhatsApp rants and for sure not in Yiddish, not my language. Don't use voice notes, period.

And if you have a problem with your smell, it's one of the symptoms...

If you can't join and have a respectful discussion without bashing others, please stay out.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 10:35:30 AM by iluv2travel »

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #843 on: June 25, 2020, 10:20:59 AM »
Some perspective is in order.

Without getting into the actual health and risk aspects of the virus and leaving this discussion with the law itself, if the rabbonim really felt it was such an emergency, they could make arrangements out of state instead of violating the law. Your rehab example fits this perfectly, as most people are sent to rehab out of state, even away from regular Jewish infrastructure, if the emergency warrants it.
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #844 on: June 25, 2020, 10:27:05 AM »
Stick to the facts.

Its wrong that the same act (which people are considering quite severe) can can get you arrested in one state but not in another. And yes I know states are allowed different laws and will not go into that argument. In this case, NY governor is acting dictatorial and not at all in the best interests of his constituents.

That may be so, but all camps in PA have permits to my knowledge. So nobody is going to get arrested there for child endangerment because they're operating a camp.

Obviously its obnoxious that NY chose not to issue them and then may arrest people based on that.

Your insistence at sticking to the facts apparently only applies to others, not yourself. There is no dictatorship, or even any abuse of power. There is a system in place. If you don't like it, stop yelling at Cuomo online, and instead yell at your rabbonim and askonim to stop funding the Democratic Party. And before people say it won't make any difference, that's simply not true. They don't spend that amount of time kissing anyone else's a$$ if it doesn't move the needle for them.
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Offline 123-Rosh

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #845 on: June 25, 2020, 10:29:24 AM »
Without getting into the actual health and risk aspects of the virus and leaving this discussion with the law itself, if the rabbonim really felt it was such an emergency, they could make arrangements out of state instead of violating the law. Your rehab example fits this perfectly, as most people are sent to rehab out of state, even away from regular Jewish infrastructure, if the emergency warrants it.

If you go back and read what I wrote, unlike rehabs, the emergency for struggling teens is to get them specifically into a frum camp setting. As of now, those exist mainly in the Catskills, in the State of NY.

Many camps that are able to move out of state, are doing it. Most camps can't just pick themselves up and move out of state. Its an enormous undertaking, in such a short amount of time..

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #846 on: June 25, 2020, 10:33:15 AM »
If you go back and read what I wrote, unlike rehabs, the emergency for struggling teens is to get them specifically into a frum camp setting. As of now, those exist mainly in the Catskills, in the State of NY.

Many camps that are able to move out of state, are doing it. Most camps can't just pick themselves up and move out of state. Its an enormous undertaking, in such a short amount of time..

It is an enormous undertaking, and one that many large camps have done successfully. The point is, if the situation is as dire as it seems, and I don't doubt that it is, they should have been working on this for a while already. An additional point, when you take a bunch of at risk kids and flaunt lawlessness, you're not helping the situation. A huge driver of youth going OTD is them seeing the disrespect of law and authority in their communities, and they question why they should respect their leadership and halachah.
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Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #847 on: June 25, 2020, 10:33:26 AM »
Without getting into the actual health and risk aspects of the virus and leaving this discussion with the law itself, if the rabbonim really felt it was such an emergency, they could make arrangements out of state instead of violating the law. Your rehab example fits this perfectly, as most people are sent to rehab out of state, even away from regular Jewish infrastructure, if the emergency warrants it.

The rehab example may warrant being outside a Jewish infrastructure to save a person's mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing.

However, to save a kid's emotional AND spiritual well being they actually would need to be in a Jewish environment. Unfortunately not all camps were logistically able to swing going out of state even if they started planning months ago, the earliest could have been late March which is not early enough in many cases.

My child is lucky enough to be attending a camp that moved to PA, I'm just feeling really terrible for the thousands of teens who were going to attend camps who were not able to move out and now they have nowhere to go because of a dictatorial decree.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #848 on: June 25, 2020, 10:36:32 AM »
The rehab example may warrant being outside a Jewish infrastructure to save a person's mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing.

However, to save a kid's emotional AND spiritual well being they actually would need to be in a Jewish environment. Unfortunately not all camps were logistically able to swing going out of state even if they started planning months ago, the earliestcould have been late March which is not early enough in many cases.

My child is lucky enough to be attending a camp that moved to PA, I'm just feeling really terrible for the thousands of teens who were going to attend camps who were not able to move out and now they have nowhere to go because of a dictatorial decree.

I sympathize with the at-risk issue. I lived it myself. It's not an excuse to break the law. You call Cuomo's rules a dictatorship. You know what at risk youth see as a dictatorship? Rabbonim and halachah. If you can crap on Cuomo, why can't they crap on their rabbonim?
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Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #849 on: June 25, 2020, 10:39:34 AM »
There is no dictatorship, or even any abuse of power. There is a system in place.

So why is NY the ONLY state to have banned sleepaway camp???

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #850 on: June 25, 2020, 10:42:35 AM »
So why is NY the ONLY state to have banned sleepaway camp???

How does that exclusivity make it a dictatorship? There is a full state government with checks and balances. You don't like the laws they put in place, elect different people.
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Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #851 on: June 25, 2020, 10:43:13 AM »
I sympathize with the at-risk issue. I lived it myself. It's not an excuse to break the law. You call Cuomo's rules a dictatorship. You know what at risk youth see as a dictatorship? Rabbonim and halachah. If you can crap on Cuomo, why can't they crap on their rabbonim?

Because honest and true rabbonim are not two faced.

You've read and heard it all over, but I'll say it again. When these teens see Cuomo allowing, condoning, and supporting mass protests (that turn into rioting, looting etc) and then turning around and banning sleep away camps that they've so been looking forward to, what kind of message does THAT send to them?


Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #852 on: June 25, 2020, 10:45:24 AM »
How does that exclusivity make it a dictatorship? There is a full state government with checks and balances. You don't like the laws they put in place, elect different people.

Come on, everyone knows this was exclusively done by Cuomo. The buck stops at his desk and nobody else had any say in this. Speak to our politicians in Albany, they all say it in this case that Cuomo was the one making this decision.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #853 on: June 25, 2020, 10:45:46 AM »
Because honest and true rabbonim are not two faced.

You've read and heard it all over, but I'll say it again. When these teens see Cuomo allowing, condoning, and supporting mass protests (that turn into rioting, looting etc) and then turning around and banning sleep away camps that they've so been looking forward to, what kind of message does THAT send to them?

That they shouldn't get into bed with Democrats?
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #854 on: June 25, 2020, 10:47:16 AM »
Come on, everyone knows this was exclusively done by Cuomo. The buck stops at his desk and nobody else had any say in this. Speak to our politicians in Albany, they all say it in this case that Cuomo was the one making this decision.

That is not how government works. If the "politicians in Albany" wanted a different outcome, it would have happened. This is called passing the buck.
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Offline Afrages6

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #855 on: June 25, 2020, 10:50:21 AM »
How does that exclusivity make it a dictatorship? There is a full state government with checks and balances. You don't like the laws they put in place, elect different people.
There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #856 on: June 25, 2020, 10:56:23 AM »
There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.

Again, not factually correct. He doesn't have absolute power, any more than DeBlasio has absolute power in NYC, or Trump has absolute power in the US. The fact that other politicians are letting them run rampant means they either agree with what's being done, or they don't care enough to do anything about it.
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #857 on: June 25, 2020, 10:57:22 AM »
There has been zero checks or balances on anything Cuomo has done for the last three months.
Isn’t the legislature complicit in that?
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #858 on: June 25, 2020, 11:01:14 AM »
He was responding to my hypothetical example of a loophole a camp could use. There are other loopholes out there esp for 18+

I wouldn't consider this a loophole.

Offline biobook

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #859 on: June 25, 2020, 11:04:51 AM »
Come on, everyone knows this was exclusively done by Cuomo. The buck stops at his desk and nobody else had any say in this. Speak to our politicians in Albany, they all say it in this case that Cuomo was the one making this decision.
The sources I read said it was based on the medical advice of Dr. Zucker.