Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 173793 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #880 on: June 25, 2020, 11:57:30 AM »
And the governor of PA is a what?

A Democrat in a swing state, whose state's politicians have put him under immense pressure to ease many of the restrictions he had in place. He's actually a great example of how bad NY politics is.
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Offline biobook

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #881 on: June 25, 2020, 11:57:55 AM »
And the governor of PA is a what? How come he didn't ban sleepaway camps "based on science and data"?

Answering my question with a question is not an answer. You know good and well that my question shows how hypocritical Cuomo is.
You've discovered an instance of two governors and two states making different decisions!  How rare that must be!

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #882 on: June 25, 2020, 11:58:38 AM »
To flex his power muscles and show that he will not be cowed by pressure from anyone that he feels he will not bow to.

By all accounts, there was no pressure, other than Agudah, which isn't pressure. And therein lies the problem. He had nothing to lose by banning camps.
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Offline alexk.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #883 on: June 25, 2020, 12:00:47 PM »
By all accounts, there was no pressure, other than Agudah, which isn't pressure. And therein lies the problem. He had nothing to lose by banning camps.

Exactly.

 What data is he using??? According to them there should have been a second wave or at least a bump in cases since the "protests". Yet the numbers continue to go down.

This is pure politics. It is called CYA.

Cuomo has to look at the benefits of allowing it:

 1) If he allows it and there is some type of outbreak in camps, he is screwed.
 2) If he doesn't allow it, no harm and no foul. 

Losing some clout with the jewish vote is not gonna be enough to sway him. We are the only ones that care at this point. Give me a reason (politically) why Cuomo would allow it?   

Offline biobook

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #884 on: June 25, 2020, 12:04:48 PM »
Like the Kawasaki report they said they were basing the decision on?
If that's what they're basing their decision on, then yes.
I don't see Kawasaki in Zucker's announcement, but I haven't been following this too closely.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #885 on: June 25, 2020, 12:06:06 PM »
Exactly.

 What data is he using??? According to them there should have been a second wave or at least a bump in cases since the "protests". Yet the numbers continue to go down.

This is pure politics. It is called CYA.

Cuomo has to look at the benefits of allowing it:

 1) If he allows it and there is some type of outbreak in camps, he is screwed.
 2) If he doesn't allow it, no harm and no foul. 

Losing some clout with the jewish vote is not gonna be enough to sway him. We are the only ones that care at this point. Give me a reason (politically) why Cuomo would allow it?   

If you read Zucker's explanation, you'll see the difference between outdoor protests and shared camp living space that led them to this decision. I agree with your assessment of Cuomo's CBA, but that just highlights why a risk-averse politician, who's state just got rocked by sickness and violence, wouldn't allow overnight camps.

As to your question, it's the one I've been asking. Politically, there's no upside. He has health concerns from doctors to back him up. Why would that be looked at at dictatorial?
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Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #886 on: June 25, 2020, 12:08:11 PM »
A Democrat in a swing state, whose state's politicians have put him under immense pressure to ease many of the restrictions he had in place. He's actually a great example of how bad NY politics is.

Exactly, NY politics are terrible, at least we agree on that :).

But you can take CA who is a solid blue state and they didn't ban camps either. To my knowledge NY is the only state that did.

You've discovered an instance of two governors and two states making different decisions!  How rare that must be!

You totally missed the point. He said not to get into bed with Democrats so I was just pointing out that not all Democrats made this stupid decision and used PA as an example but there are many others as well.

By all accounts, there was no pressure, other than Agudah, which isn't pressure. And therein lies the problem. He had nothing to lose by banning camps.

No, Mr Eichenstein and other politicians from our community also tried pressuring and it didn't help. He was utterly disappointed when the announcement came. Google it.

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #887 on: June 25, 2020, 12:10:12 PM »
If that's what they're basing their decision on, then yes.
I don't see Kawasaki in Zucker's announcement, but I haven't been following this too closely.

His question was rhetorical because they never even waited for that report to come out!

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #888 on: June 25, 2020, 12:15:35 PM »
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #889 on: June 25, 2020, 12:23:50 PM »
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.
Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #890 on: June 25, 2020, 12:27:12 PM »
Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?
Does he have a pen? Does he have a phone?

Then yes, he’s a lawmaker.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #891 on: June 25, 2020, 12:40:17 PM »
Is Coumo a "lawmaker"?

Who signs bills into law in NYS?
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Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #892 on: June 25, 2020, 12:47:11 PM »
The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.

Well said and I totally agree. I'm not advocating publicly disregarding the law, but finding ways to legally make it work.

And I did not vote for Cuomo. A lot it helped to get a different lawmaker elected...

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #893 on: June 25, 2020, 12:57:13 PM »
True, the law is the law. However, there is a loophole in the law.

Just like a good accountant and making your corporate entities set up in a certain way can help you avoid taxes; so too, a good lawyer can find a loophole in a law that can make you compliant with law.

Is it the best way to approach it? Certainly not.

Do some feel that with their backs against the wall they are willing to do what it takes , even if it toes the line of the law? Yes.

Interpretation of law and ways around them is how many lawyers make their parnossah. It is not always popular but can be legal. That is why the rich pay less in taxes in proportion to income. Exploiting the loopholes. It was just never necessary to be done for camp or the like.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #894 on: June 25, 2020, 01:01:15 PM »
Well said and I totally agree. I'm not advocating publicly disregarding the law, but finding ways to legally make it work.

And I did not vote for Cuomo. A lot it helped to get a different lawmaker elected...

As long as "finding ways to legally make it work" doesn't mean lying, then we're in agreement.

I think that if the communities used this as a teachable moment for the at-risk youth (and the general public, as well) about the value of civic engagement, both on the community level and with regards to local and state government, it would be a lot more productive and beneficial than railing against the establishment and perceived injustices. There's a lot of talk in our communities about how others only complain and march and do not take the initiative to lift themselves up and better their situation. We should learn from what we preach, rather than from what others do.
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Offline shapsam

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #895 on: June 25, 2020, 01:02:49 PM »
Who signs bills into law in NYS?
Banning camps wasn't signed into law.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #896 on: June 25, 2020, 01:03:00 PM »
True, the law is the law. However, there is a loophole in the law.

Just like a good accountant and making your corporate entities set up in a certain way can help you avoid taxes; so too, a good lawyer can find a loophole in a law that can make you compliant with law.

Is it the best way to approach it? Certainly not.

Do some feel that with their backs against the wall they are willing to do what it takes , even if it toes the line of the law? Yes.

Interpretation of law and ways around them is how many lawyers make their parnossah. It is not always popular but can be legal. That is why the rich pay less in taxes in proportion to income. Exploiting the loopholes. It was just never necessary to be done for camp or the like.

Loopholes are fine; lying is not. As long as those distinctions are made, great. I have not seen a loophole-based solution posted here yet. All I've seen is suggestions to lie about what we're really doing.
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #897 on: June 25, 2020, 01:10:19 PM »
Banning camps wasn't signed into law.

Ok, doesn't change Cuomo's status as a lawmaker.
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #898 on: June 25, 2020, 01:14:34 PM »
I have heard a camp is not having kids sleep for more than 72 hours onsite straight. It is therefore considered a daycamp + temporary residence ( since it is less than 72 hours straight).

They plan on having the boys sleep outside of camp grounds twice a week.

I don't know the rules, but they claim it is within the law... 

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #899 on: June 25, 2020, 01:19:29 PM »
As long as "finding ways to legally make it work" doesn't mean lying, then we're in agreement.

I think that if the communities used this as a teachable moment for the at-risk youth (and the general public, as well) about the value of civic engagement, both on the community level and with regards to local and state government, it would be a lot more productive and beneficial than railing against the establishment and perceived injustices. There's a lot of talk in our communities about how others only complain and march and do not take the initiative to lift themselves up and better their situation. We should learn from what we preach, rather than from what others do.

All very true, but that doesn't solve the problem of thousands of teens not having where to go and what to do over the next 2+ months.