Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?

[Lurker]

All very true, but that doesn't solve the problem of thousands of teens not having where to go and what to do over the next 2+ months.

For sure, but just because you have a problem, that doesn't warrant lawlessness. Being poor doesn't excuse "borrowing" something from a store without paying for it. I don't have a solution for poverty, either, btw.

[biobook]

All very true, but that doesn't solve the problem of thousands of teens not having where to go and what to do over the next 2+ months.

Brilliant!  You've reframed the issue in a way that's more likely to lead to a solution.

Instead of "How can we find an interpretation of the law that will allow sleepover camps", the more useful question might be "How can we find meaningful activities for thousands of frum teens who now have nowhere to go".

[Dan]

The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers.

Or move to a swing state.

[Euclid]

Or move to a swing state.

Dan, be honest, if you hadn't grown up in Cleveland would you move to Ohio?

[iluv2travel]

Or move to a swing state.

Both are way easier said than done.

Brilliant!  You've reframed the issue in a way that's more likely to lead to a solution.

Instead of "How can we find an interpretation of the law that will allow sleepover camps", the more useful question might be "How can we find meaningful activities for thousands of frum teens who now have nowhere to go".

And if that solution involves finding a way to legally open camps then I'm all for it. We can keep going in circles here.

Look, the anti- sleepaway and the pro people will each remain in their respective camps - pun intended-  no matter what the other side says, as each one has their own agenda to back up. That's what politics is all about after all  .

[biobook]

Look, the anti- sleepaway and the pro people will each remain in their respective camps - pun intended-  no matter what the other side says, as each one has their own agenda to back up. That's what politics is all about after all  .

I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.

78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option

It's clearly not a religious requirement.  And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.

If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination.  Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.   

[PlatinumGuy]

I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.

78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option

It's clearly not a religious requirement.  And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.

If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination.  Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.

Can you blame the kids for wanting to disobey these leaders? I would go off that derech too

[123-Rosh]

I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.

78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option

It's clearly not a religious requirement.  And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.

If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination.  Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.

For millennia, there was no rehab for drug addicts. Why do we suddenly need rehabs? Why didn't the Governor close all the rehabs to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
What about nursing homes? For millennia the human species survived without it.

Of course we need rehabs and we need nursing homes, thousands of years of history notwithstanding. We also need camps. After 3 months of keeping kids indoors, there is a mental health crisis and teens need camp.

For religious Jews, the mental health crisis is causing many kids to go OTD. So in addition to the mental health crisis, there is a religious crisis.

You may not be aware of this crisis. Many people are not aware of the sexual abuse crisis, or the substance abuse crisis. But these crises are real. Just ask your local ortho school principal. Or any parent of teens.

[beeweegee]

[Lurker]

For millennia, there was no rehab for drug addicts. Why do we suddenly need rehabs? Why didn't the Governor close all the rehabs to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
What about nursing homes? For millennia the human species survived without it.

Of course we need rehabs and we need nursing homes, thousands of years of history notwithstanding. We also need camps. After 3 months of keeping kids indoors, there is a mental health crisis and teens need camp.

For religious Jews, the mental health crisis is causing many kids to go OTD. So in addition to the mental health crisis, there is a religious crisis.

You may not be aware of this crisis. Many people are not aware of the sexual abuse crisis, or the substance abuse crisis. But these crises are real. Just ask your local ortho school principal. Or any parent of teens.

LMAO!! The drug and abuse problems have been here for 20 years already, but thanks for filling us in. Here's a shocker for you... camp doesn't solve those issues. In fact, it's where a lot of them start. But moving on...

[mgarfin]

https://hamodia.com/2020/06/25/nys-dept-health-sends-letter-camp-operators/

[iluv2travel]

https://hamodia.com/2020/06/25/nys-dept-health-sends-letter-camp-operators/

Already posted above by @beeweegee

[yossig]

The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law. If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.

Why are you so obsessed with the law?
Do you only cross at a crosswalk? Or you just cross at your convenience when it’s safe?

When we’re at a point that the laws are not about the people’s best interest and all it’s is politics, people stop caring. Period.

[iluv2travel]

I'm neither pro nor con, just trying to understand both sides.
I do understand the medical and scientific arguments to close sleepaway camps.
I don't understand the argument that the only two options are sleepaway camps and roaming the streets.

78 - Number of years frum children have been able to attend Camp Agudah and other sleepaway camps
3255 - Number of years since Matan Torah that frum children have NOT had that option

It's clearly not a religious requirement.  And Cuomo, who grew up with orthodox Jewish neighbors is aware of that.

If children, parents, and teachers today cannot imagine a summer without sleepaway camp, that seems to be a failure of the imagination.  Perhaps the more creative people out there can help them work out other options.

Give us the numbers of since when Jewish girls are attending schools which began with the advent of Bais Yakov by Sara Schneirer about 100 years ago or so. Maybe we should imagine our girls stopping to go to school because it's not necessary since they didn't have the option to attend schools for thousands of years prior to that?


And you can take it to the next level as well - how long is there a law on the books making it mandatory for a child up to age 16 to attend school? Maybe it should be nullified and we should imagine a world where ALL children (not just Jewish) age 12 and up can do as they please. Years back these children were needed to help on the farms. Well times change.

Just like we no longer need our kids to tend to the cows and chickens and thus school becomes part of our life, the same is for camp. It's part of life nowadays. Saying we should go back to living like in the early 1900s or prior is a non-starter.

I'm not saying camp is a religious requirement or a life and death matter, but a parent should have an option to send their child if they choose to do so. Coming out with a hard and strong ban was and is uncalled for. There is not a single other state that is going to such lengths to make sure camp doesn't happen by hook or by crook. It's just downright wrong to do this to people.

There is no medical or scientific reasoning to shut camps, that all fell away with the mass protests of thousands of people. And all the health protocols that camps promised to abide by have already been discussed here ad nauseam.

[CountValentine]

When we’re at a point that the laws are not about the people’s best interest and all it’s is politics, people stop caring. Period.

That's what the current protesters say and they are also wrong. You get to pick and choose.

[Mikes@Micro]

@iluv2travel +1

@biobook a famous gadol said "you'll see more walking down the street in NYC then your grandmother saw in her entire lifetime on the shtetl" 

You cant compare from a time when there was no such thing as summer vacation or a school year......

[Mikes@Micro]

That's what the current protesters say and they are also wrong. You get to pick and choose.

Politicians are infallible? They can get one thing right and another wrong.

Not taking a side on the camp issue just pointing out the flawed logic.

[biobook]

For millennia, there was no rehab for drug addicts. Why do we suddenly need rehabs? Why didn't the Governor close all the rehabs to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
What about nursing homes? For millennia the human species survived without it.

Of course we need rehabs and we need nursing homes, thousands of years of history notwithstanding. We also need camps. After 3 months of keeping kids indoors, there is a mental health crisis and teens need camp.

For religious Jews, the mental health crisis is causing many kids to go OTD. So in addition to the mental health crisis, there is a religious crisis.

You may not be aware of this crisis. Many people are not aware of the sexual abuse crisis, or the substance abuse crisis. But these crises are real. Just ask your local ortho school principal. Or any parent of teens.

Kids in camps raise different health concerns than adults in rehab or nursing homes - many children sleeping in a small room, few health professionals, inappropriate facilities for separating those who get sick.  It's not surprising that there would be different regulations for these settings.

What we need is not rehab, nursing homes, and camps, but rather methods to care for drug abusers, elderly, and children.  Those methods that worked for a few years in the recent past are certainly not the only ones imaginable.

[Dan]

@biobook a famous gadol said "you'll see more walking down the street in NYC then your grandmother saw in her entire lifetime on the shtetl" 

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675

[CountValentine]

Politicians are infallible? They can get one thing right and another wrong.

Not taking a side on the camp issue just pointing out the flawed logic.

Of course they are not infallible. There is pattern of complaining. In thread after thread.
Every thread was crying and whining the shuls were closed. Now we moved on to camps. What is next mikvahs?