Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 173756 times)

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #920 on: June 25, 2020, 07:04:19 PM »
Kids in camps raise different health concerns than adults in rehab or nursing homes - many children sleeping in a small room, few health professionals, inappropriate facilities for separating those who get sick.  It's not surprising that there would be different regulations for these settings.

What we need is not rehab, nursing homes, and camps, but rather methods to care for drug abusers, elderly, and children.  Those methods that worked for a few years in the recent past are certainly not the only ones imaginable.

How many breakouts of the virus have you heard of amongst childrens' homes or in schools that are currently open (and yes there are many with thousands in attendance,  no masks, but let's not get into that argument)? I didn't hear of any.

And how many were there in nursing homes where loads actually died? GIYF, you can find the numbers there.

The reality is that healthy children are just not as susceptible to this virus as older adults or even not older ones. It's just not such a big issue for kids and even so camps were willing to go to great lengths to ensure health and safety.

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #921 on: June 25, 2020, 07:06:34 PM »
Of course they are not infallible. There is pattern of complaining. In thread after thread.
Every thread was crying and whining the shuls were closed. Now we moved on to camps. What is next mikvahs?

Its basically one and the same. It's about the double standard being applied by allowing the protests during a health crisis but continuing to be heavy handed in other areas.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #922 on: June 25, 2020, 07:09:23 PM »
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675

So you're saying CLE is the geographical equivalent of walking blindfolded in NYC. You don't see anything, and there's nothing to see?  :P
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #923 on: June 25, 2020, 07:12:06 PM »
A girls camp was recently announced as opening in the Poconos. Initially my daughters were very reluctant given who the directors were, but realizing that there are virtually no other options, and with school being closed for the summer, they'll take whatever they can get. The camps opening have the upper hand financially. People are desparate!

I wonder if I can get a prescription for my children to go to camp, and pay for it from an HSA or FSA. This is really required at this point for mental health reasons.
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Offline biobook

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #924 on: June 25, 2020, 07:22:56 PM »
How many breakouts of the virus have you heard of amongst childrens' homes or in schools that are currently open (and yes there are many with thousands in attendance,  no masks, but let's not get into that argument)? I didn't hear of any.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fifth-coronavirus-case-reported-at-jcc-posnack-summer-camp-in-broward/ar-BB15Vj3V
Here's an example from a day camp, open just a couple of weeks.  Three counselors and 2 campers tested positive.  The JCC CEO: “We immediately contacted parents of all campers in the counselor’s group to pick up their children.”  That would be difficult to do in an overnight camp, where parents don't live in the neighborhood. 

Offline Lurker

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #925 on: June 25, 2020, 07:34:13 PM »
Why are you so obsessed with the law?
Do you only cross at a crosswalk? Or you just cross at your convenience when it’s safe?

When we’re at a point that the laws are not about the people’s best interest and all it’s is politics, people stop caring. Period.

Are you really comparing individual jaywalking with publicly breaking the law en masse and involving thousands of children? Nuance, anyone?
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Offline Dan

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #926 on: June 25, 2020, 07:40:36 PM »
Are you really comparing individual jaywalking with publicly breaking the law en masse and involving thousands of children? Nuance, anyone?

Nuance?
Like this regarding disputing a charge for a service not provided?
How convenient. But when some sites advertise doing disputes with companies who don't want to give full refunds then we aren't?? I see how this golus thing is very convenient for people. Take everything sitting down until it involves you. So now it involves them so they're doing what they have to.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #927 on: June 25, 2020, 07:44:16 PM »
Give us the numbers of since when Jewish girls are attending schools which began with the advent of Bais Yakov by Sara Schneirer about 100 years ago or so. Maybe we should imagine our girls stopping to go to school because it's not necessary since they didn't have the option to attend schools for thousands of years prior to that?


And you can take it to the next level as well - how long is there a law on the books making it mandatory for a child up to age 16 to attend school? Maybe it should be nullified and we should imagine a world where ALL children (not just Jewish) age 12 and up can do as they please. Years back these children were needed to help on the farms. Well times change.

Just like we no longer need our kids to tend to the cows and chickens and thus school becomes part of our life, the same is for camp. It's part of life nowadays. Saying we should go back to living like in the early 1900s or prior is a non-starter.

They didn't ban camp forever. We're talking one summer. 2 months. Let's not make as if we're rolling back the clock to the 1920's. @biobook's point was that camp is a relatively new invention. We can figure out what to do for one summer.

I'm not saying camp is a religious requirement or a life and death matter, but a parent should have an option to send their child if they choose to do so. Coming out with a hard and strong ban was and is uncalled for. There is not a single other state that is going to such lengths to make sure camp doesn't happen by hook or by crook. It's just downright wrong to do this to people.

This has been discussed before. You don't have unlimited free will in a democracy. Also, I'm pretty sure NJ and CT have also banned overnight camps.

There is no medical or scientific reasoning to shut camps, that all fell away with the mass protests of thousands of people. And all the health protocols that camps promised to abide by have already been discussed here ad nauseam.

You saying there are no medical or scientific reasons doesn't make it true. There were reasons listed in the published DOH letter. You don't need to like them, and "whataboutisms" aren't going to cancel them out, either.

I'd just like to point out to all those saying setting up out of state isn't feasible, the camp @ExGingi posted about above came together in a matter of weeks by 2 people who don't currently run a camp. If something is important to you, it can be done, and done correctly.
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Offline biobook

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #928 on: June 25, 2020, 08:13:49 PM »
Give us the numbers of since when Jewish girls are attending schools which began with the advent of Bais Yakov by Sara Schneirer about 100 years ago or so. Maybe we should imagine our girls stopping to go to school because it's not necessary since they didn't have the option to attend schools for thousands of years prior to that?


And you can take it to the next level as well - how long is there a law on the books making it mandatory for a child up to age 16 to attend school? Maybe it should be nullified and we should imagine a world where ALL children (not just Jewish) age 12 and up can do as they please. Years back these children were needed to help on the farms. Well times change.

Just like we no longer need our kids to tend to the cows and chickens and thus school becomes part of our life, the same is for camp. It's part of life nowadays. Saying we should go back to living like in the early 1900s or prior is a non-starter.
Yes!  Girls should stop studying, children should leave school, kids should tend the cows and chickens... when we're faced with a calamity that warrants those changes. That's exactly what happened during WWII, when high school boys and girls left the city to tend the farms, feed the chickens, pick the apples.

No one is suggesting that camps be disbanded.  Just not used for overnight camps this year, because the medical situation warrants it.
Quote
I'm not saying camp is a religious requirement or a life and death matter, but a parent should have an option to send their child if they choose to do so.
What is this sense of entitlement based on?  Who gets to do whatever they choose to?

Quote
There is no medical or scientific reasoning to shut camps, that all fell away with the mass protests of thousands of people.
Saying there is no medical reason doesn't make it so.  Can you refute the specific medical reasons that were given by Zucker?

Offline yossig

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #929 on: June 25, 2020, 08:24:29 PM »
Are you really comparing individual jaywalking with publicly breaking the law en masse and involving thousands of children? Nuance, anyone?
No I’m not.
But from your post it does look like you are placing them on the same level.

The point is, you don't have to like the decision, but the law is the law . If you want laws to be made differently, elect different lawmakers. There is a system, and while it is far from perfect, it can be made to work for you. I understand the disappointment 100%. I understand the concerns about at-risk kids 100%. I don't understand the halachic and moral basis for publicly disregarding the law.
J walking is usually on public street  ::)

Offline 123-Rosh

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #930 on: June 25, 2020, 08:24:35 PM »
The bottom line is that parents of teens understand the mental health crisis facing their children and the need for camp. Everyone else can be an armchair general. You'll never understand anyways.

Its like explaining to whites the racism blacks endure. You'll never understand.

Online CountValentine

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #931 on: June 25, 2020, 08:27:37 PM »
The bottom line is that parents of teens understand the mental health crisis facing their children and the need for camp.
Can you try and explain a little bit. Never thought of camp that way.
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Offline 123-Rosh

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #932 on: June 25, 2020, 08:39:37 PM »
Never thought of camp that way.

Exactly.

And you won't understand so I'm not going to bother getting all emotionally worked up about it.

Ever had a substance abuser in your home? An abusive spouse? A sexual abuser? A mentally unstable family member? Alcoholic? Having teens locked up in your house for the last 3 months can feel like all of the above. And the only thing that kept many of these kids going was the hope that camps would open. You can't begin to fathom the mental health crisis that's happening in all these families that have teens. Speak to any high school principal. Speak to mental health professionals. Its real.

Again, if you're not experiencing it yourself, you won't understand. Its like explaining to whites the racism blacks endure. But trust us - its real!

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #933 on: June 25, 2020, 09:24:53 PM »
Exactly.

And you won't understand so I'm not going to bother getting all emotionally worked up about it.

Ever had a substance abuser in your home? An abusive spouse? A sexual abuser? A mentally unstable family member? Alcoholic? Having teens locked up in your house for the last 3 months can feel like all of the above. And the only thing that kept many of these kids going was the hope that camps would open. You can't begin to fathom the mental health crisis that's happening in all these families that have teens. Speak to any high school principal. Speak to mental health professionals. Its real.

Again, if you're not experiencing it yourself, you won't understand. Its like explaining to whites the racism blacks endure. But trust us - its real!
Substance abuser - check
Alcoholic - check
Gambling addict - check
School teacher/principal 40+ years - check
Kids early 20's locked up for 3 months - check
Do I qualify?  :)

Another member explained it to me privately and I understand fully.
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Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #934 on: June 25, 2020, 09:57:10 PM »
Yes!  Girls should stop studying, children should leave school, kids should tend the cows and chickens... when we're faced with a calamity that warrants those changes. That's exactly what happened during WWII, when high school boys and girls left the city to tend the farms, feed the chickens, pick the apples.

The medical crisis is all but over! Are we still having 700+ people dying daily?? We're a far cry from where we were at the peak of this crisis. Why do we need to be stuck with severe restrictions like we had at that time?
Even if people want to point to rising numbers elsewhere such as Florida, their daily new cases are still not close to what we had and their deaths are a very far cry.

It's time to move on.

No one is suggesting that camps be disbanded.  Just not used for overnight camps this year, because the medical situation warrants it.What is this sense of entitlement based on?  Who gets to do whatever they choose to?

Are we living in communism?
Do you get to choose if you want to eat at a restaurant or not? Shop at a liquor store? Attend a sporting event? Go to a horse race? Swim at the beach? Yes, because they're all open! You can choose not to do any of the above but you have the option. Parents should get to choose if they want to send their child to camp or not, mental or emotional crisis not withstanding. Some of us just want to give our kids a wholesome summer away from the crowded city and apartments they live in all year - let them enjoy 2 months of fresh air, green grass, sports, swimming, etc.

Saying there is no medical reason doesn't make it so.  Can you refute the specific medical reasons that were given by Zucker?

Camps provided him with all that and more. He was completely disinterested and totally disregarded it. It was written up in the Hamodia - they interviewed people who were directly part of the conference calls with him.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 10:00:18 PM by iluv2travel »

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #935 on: June 25, 2020, 10:56:29 PM »
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=21675
Ot but great point. May I add that less affluent neighborhoods are better regardless of the city?
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #936 on: June 25, 2020, 11:04:23 PM »
What is this sense of entitlement based on?  Who gets to do whatever they choose to?


The personal vs public health crisis debate wouldn't apply to a camp.

If the virus is compared to speeding which is dangerous to others and .: illegal and by running around town you can get others sick.
All parents agreeing to send whatever happens happens wouldnt consistute a public danger.
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Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #937 on: June 26, 2020, 12:30:30 AM »
The personal vs public health crisis debate wouldn't apply to a camp.

If the virus is compared to speeding which is dangerous to others and .: illegal and by running around town you can get others sick.
All parents agreeing to send whatever happens happens wouldnt consistute a public danger.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #938 on: June 26, 2020, 03:05:16 AM »
https://matzav.com/read-it-here-ny-department-of-health-releases-update-on-sleepaway-camps/

seemingly they got wind of some of the loopholes and are trying to close them

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #939 on: June 26, 2020, 03:14:03 AM »
https://matzav.com/read-it-here-ny-department-of-health-releases-update-on-sleepaway-camps/

seemingly they got wind of some of the loopholes and are trying to close them

They probably read DDF.