Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 173820 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #940 on: June 26, 2020, 05:09:56 AM »
The personal vs public health crisis debate wouldn't apply to a camp.

If the virus is compared to speeding which is dangerous to others and .: illegal and by running around town you can get others sick.
All parents agreeing to send whatever happens happens wouldnt consistute a public danger.
Is a parent entitled to decide their child shouldn't attend school or receive a home education?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #941 on: June 26, 2020, 08:07:26 AM »
Rabbanim and Asksnim were and are completely involved in the effort to open camps because they deemed it important.

In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.

So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.

Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????

I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.



Offline yesitsme

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #942 on: June 26, 2020, 08:41:10 AM »
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.

So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.

Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????

I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
In Israel  things are getting worse, IN NY things are as good as can be, covid was officially nullified
["-"]

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #943 on: June 26, 2020, 09:40:09 AM »
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.

So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.

Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????

I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.
The 2 rabbanim mentioned do not have a monopoly on Daas Torah. There are other views, not just from askanim but from senior rabbanim and roshei Yeshiva. It is dispicable  to accuse them of negius!

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #944 on: June 26, 2020, 09:52:06 AM »
Is a parent entitled to decide their child shouldn't attend school or receive a home education?
I dont understand the relevance.

The 2 rabbanim mentioned do not have a monopoly on Daas Torah. There are other views, not just from askanim but from senior rabbanim and roshei Yeshiva. It is dispicable  to accuse them of negius!

+1 @yfr bachur is the rapidly evolving fluid situation the same now as when those statements were made? What would they say regarding this specific issue?


They probably read DDF.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #945 on: June 26, 2020, 11:34:42 AM »
In Israel Rav Asher Weiss has stated that the askanim pushing to open the shuls have a place in Gehenom waiting for them.
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz stated at the beggining of the out break - after Purim that the Avodas Hayom is "Achrayus" responsibility. i.e. even though that I (think that I) will not get sick, and it has nothing to do with me, I have a chiyuv to do things to protect other people.
Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot.
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a rav or askan who is also an overgrown teenager.


This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.
Quote
Which Responsible Rav will take achrayus for the nichum aveilim if something goes wrong??????
Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #946 on: June 26, 2020, 11:47:51 AM »
Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot. This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel. Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).
I agree with very little that you write in this forum, but this post is spot on
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #947 on: June 26, 2020, 12:17:11 PM »
Why is this relevant 2-3 months later, in a different country, to a completely different question? Each of these 3 alone are enough to make your argument moot. This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel. Any rav who "errs on the side of caution" because he doesn't want to take achrayus if something goes wrong, without regard for the repercussions of erring on the side of caution, shouldn't be answering such shailos (or any shailos).

And I agree with most of what you write especially here in support of camp ;D.  You hit the nail on the head on this one. Why are we stuck on what was going on a few months ago when the reality now is completely different?

These people who are so busy defending this ban on camps for sure did not have businesses that were forced to be shut for months nor do they have large families with children out of school for months as well. For those of us that do, that, coupled with a total different reality than that of a few months ago, puts us in a completely different frame of thought.

Come next Tuesday after the hearing will be like Color War here. If the TRO is denied I can see those supporting the ban cheering loudly and vice vs if the TRO is granted (myself among those 8))

Offline Dan

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #948 on: June 26, 2020, 12:26:58 PM »
And I agree with most of what you write especially here in support of camp ;D.  You hit the nail on the head on this one. Why are we stuck on what was going on a few months ago when the reality now is completely different?

These people who are so busy defending this ban on camps for sure did not have businesses that were forced to be shut for months nor do they have large families with children out of school for months as well. For those of us that do, that, coupled with a total different reality than that of a few months ago, puts us in a completely different frame of thought.

Come next Tuesday after the hearing will be like Color War here. If the TRO is denied I can see those supporting the ban cheering loudly and vice vs if the TRO is granted (myself among those 8))
You wrongly conflate people being happy with the TRO being denied. People advocating not to break don't mean they don't think the EO is foolish. Once again, nuance is in short supply here.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #949 on: June 26, 2020, 12:51:00 PM »
You wrongly conflate people being happy with the TRO being denied. People advocating not to break don't mean they don't think the EO is foolish. Once again, nuance is in short supply here.

If a TRO is issued then wouldn't that mean opening a camp is no longer breaking the law? Or am I missing something?

I never once said anything about breaking any laws, I just said banning camps was uncalled for and that parents should be able to have an option to send their children to camp knowing all risks involved. We make many other decisions for them throughout their childhood growing up in our homes, this shouldn't be an different. Attending day camp also has risks and if I choose to send that's my call, but if I'm afraid of the risks I won't send. Same for camp.

Offline Dan

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #950 on: June 26, 2020, 01:13:53 PM »
If a TRO is issued then wouldn't that mean opening a camp is no longer breaking the law? Or am I missing something?

I never once said anything about breaking any laws, I just said banning camps was uncalled for and that parents should be able to have an option to send their children to camp knowing all risks involved. We make many other decisions for them throughout their childhood growing up in our homes, this shouldn't be an different. Attending day camp also has risks and if I choose to send that's my call, but if I'm afraid of the risks I won't send. Same for camp.
You said there would be color war here if the TRO is denied with celebration among people supporting the ban when in fact I'd say nearly everyone here does not support the ban, this is a straw man position. The actual argument is about following the law and not causing a C"H versus camp being a YV"Y and worth violating the law to open.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #951 on: June 26, 2020, 02:15:49 PM »
You said there would be color war here if the TRO is denied with celebration among people supporting the ban when in fact I'd say nearly everyone here does not support the ban, this is a straw man position. The actual argument is about following the law and not causing a C"H versus camp being a YV"Y and worth violating the law to open.

I get that loud and clear.

However, most of the arguments being made by those that are against camps opening (which is currently against the law in NY) would apply to ALL camps even those opening out of state which there are plenty of. That's why it comes across as being anti-camp period, not anti-camp-opening-if-it-breaks-the-law. Therefore, it sounds like they'd be cheering if the TRO was not issued.

On a side note, the now closed survey for this thread should have "IN NY" added to it, then you guys that voted No and were prophetic that there wouldn't be camp can feel vindicated. As we are all aware, many of us are lucky enough to be able to send our kids to camps that have moved out of state...

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #952 on: June 28, 2020, 12:42:15 AM »
If a TRO is issued then wouldn't that mean opening a camp is no longer breaking the law? Or am I missing something?

I never once said anything about breaking any laws, I just said banning camps was uncalled for and that parents should be able to have an option to send their children to camp knowing all risks involved. We make many other decisions for them throughout their childhood growing up in our homes, this shouldn't be an different. Attending day camp is definitely riskier and if I choose to send that's my call, but if I'm afraid of the risks I won't send. Same for camp.
FTFY

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #953 on: June 28, 2020, 02:08:59 AM »
This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.

Maybe I'm colored by what/who I've seen in Israel, but I don't agree entirely. I purposefully did not name names of groups but I can.
A large segment of the Peleg faction sees this entire Corona thing as a plot of the Tziyoni Govt to take more control. This is based on their (right or wrong) preexisting distrust of the Govt.  plus their "hate" for anything that has to do with academics.
Ditto for the population of Meah Shearim.
I've spoken with quite a number of Satmarers who do not believe in the existence of Covid as a deathly Illness. They blame all deaths on the murderous doctors and nurses.
I have heard a number of US camp "askanim" who have positions in the ruchmius side of camps (camp rav, learning director...) who have made statements that the way I understand them may be borderline kefira (the mashmaus of one of the statements was: If Hashem doesn't make a ness and allow the the camps to open, He doesn't know what he is doing.)
The Rabbanim who won't wear a mask because "It doesn't look good"???? (personal direct knowledge of one - who I will not name, and rumors of others) 

Sorry, there is such a thing of negius, and unless a person has worked very hard to eradicate it, it will influence his decisions. Becoming an askan or getting smicha does not remove ones propensity for negius.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 02:15:23 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #954 on: June 28, 2020, 02:40:16 AM »
Maybe I'm colored by what/who I've seen in Israel, but I don't agree entirely. I purposefully did not name names of groups but I can.
A large segment of the Peleg faction sees this entire Corona thing as a plot of the Tziyoni Govt to take more control. This is based on their (right or wrong) preexisting distrust of the Govt.  plus their "hate" for anything that has to do with academics.
Ditto for the population of Meah Shearim.
I've spoken with quite a number of Satmarers who do not believe in the existence of Covid as a deathly Illness. They blame all deaths on the murderous doctors and nurses.
I have heard a number of US camp "askanim" who have positions in the ruchmius side of camps (camp rav, learning director...) who have made statements that the way I understand them may be borderline kefira (the mashmaus of one of the statements was: If Hashem doesn't make a ness and allow the the camps to open, He doesn't know what he is doing.)
The Rabbanim who won't wear a mask because "It doesn't look good"???? (personal direct knowledge of one - who I will not name, and rumors of others) 

Sorry, there is such a thing of negius, and unless a person has worked very hard to eradicate it, it will influence his decisions. Becoming an askan or getting smicha does not remove ones propensity for negius.
I can use Artscroll on this one.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #955 on: June 28, 2020, 05:32:23 AM »
Ok it started with this

Yea... lying isn't a loophole. It's lying. And when you teach your kids that it's ok when it suits your purposes, what has camp really accomplished?
Let's say they take the Orphanage root and the law will allow them to open if they have 1 orphan is that sending a bad message to kids?
Is having a good accountant and avoid paying more taxes is that a bad message?
Wow. Yes, calling yourself an orphanage in order to open a camp sends a horrible message to kids. And if your accountant needs to lie on your tax return in order to save you money, he's not really a good accountant. He's engaging in fraud, as are you.

What the hell happened to us?

there were a number of responses that also had a problem with the idea of lying and fraud to open camps.

I replied to Lurker
What has happened is that we are a bunch of spoiled overgrown teenagers who think that if we dont get exactly what we want it's the greatest churban in the history of Klal Yisroel, and we can do what ever we want to get what we want.
We don't run our lives by asking "what does the torah want from me now?" rather "How I find a loophole to allow what I want?"
We dont trust those that know better than us. Rabbanim, Poskim, Doctors, Scientists, Economists, Accountants... If they dont allow me to do what I want, they "dont know what they're talking about" "Its an educated guess" "they get paid off" "There's a Bashefer" "they dont understand" "I think differently" "

Which is a response to why people MAY think it plausible that lying and the twisting of truth is OK.

however the response was:
Wrong.

Talk for yourself.

We sure do trust all of the above and more. Rabbanim and Asksnim were and are completely involved in the effort to open camps because they deemed it important. They are in consultation with doctors and medical experts to run those camps according to the highest standards possible from that perspective.

Do you see our community rioting, looting, shooting, burning, and what-not over this ban??? We are absolutely NOT doing whatever we want to get what we want.

The governor here has become a dictator. Wake up and smell the coffee.

The main point of my response was
So dont tell me about ASKANIM and Rabanim. THEY ALSO CAN HAVE NEGIUS.
A rav or askan who will loose his parnasa if the camp where he is employed doesn't open.
A rav or askan whos world outlook includes disbeleiving academics, and science.
A Rav or askan who has built or is part of a community based on non-conformance with the Goverment in which ever country they live.
a Askan who is also an overgrown teenager.

I agree that Coumo needs to be chalanged to protect our Religious rights in the US. However, we don't need to be as STUPID as the GOv, Mayor, rioters.
They do not have a din of "Vechay Bohem". We do.

In which I meant to say that: The involvement of Askanim and Rabbanim is a straw man to deflect criticism of the unmoral and unethical methods to open camps proposed further up the thread. I also meant to state that it is possible that some of those involved in the push to open the camps MAY have some negia that causes them to look at the issue in such a way that they would advocate some of the things that caused Lurkers indignant comment.

I also mean to clarify that disagreement with the methods proposed does not mean that I agree with the Gov and Mayor. I in fact think that thay are very wrong and it would be a dangerous precedent to allow them to go unchallenged in the courts. Including applying to the US Supreme Court for lawful relief from the unconstitutional denial of religious rights.

I was probably misunderstood, which lead to
This kind of rhetoric against any rav who isn't your rav and/or disagrees with your rav is despicable and has no place in Klal Yisroel.

To which I tried to explain myself and delineate some of the current negius that may color someones decision making process and cause them to advocate the things that precipitated Lurkers comment

I would rather be known here for intelligent thought out comments like my post in the mezuza fraud https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=100475.msg2277102#msg2277102thread so this will probably be my last post on this thread
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 05:42:02 AM by yfr bachur »

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #956 on: June 28, 2020, 10:22:54 AM »
@yfr bachur wow! We can all applaud you for the effort put into compiling that post!

I would just like to point everyones attention to a recent ruling by a NY Court ruling the restrictions to be hypocritical so keep in mind the governor has Negius too (or more so- this is his career on the line) 
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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #957 on: June 28, 2020, 11:32:09 AM »
@yfr bachur wow! We can all applaud you for the effort put into compiling that post!

I would just like to point everyones attention to a recent ruling by a NY Court ruling the restrictions to be hypocritical so keep in mind the governor has Negius too (or more so- this is his career on the line)
+1 @yfr bachur for a great post  :). Thanks for all that clarification.

In one of your posts you stated that we don't trust "Rabbanim, Poskim, Doctors, Scientists, Economists, Accountants...". You then removed Rabbanim and Poskim and put them in a separate category saying that they MAY have negius. That's totally contradictory. You either trust all those people who know better, or you don't. Only some have Negius and others don't? All are human and subject to human flaws. Can't pick and choose as it suits you.

The Negius that the governor has here definitely trumps any and all negius that SOME rabbanim or askanim MAY have - I highly doubt any of those associated with the Agudah can be placed in that category. I don't think it's fair to paint the effort to open camps in a negative light, because of the (unconfirmed) negius of a select few.

Many of them have been trying their utmost to open out of state which is obviously not a loophole or lying at all and obviously would remove any negius for opening in state. However, there are plenty of camps who for very valid reasons are absolutely unable to just move to other camp grounds. Take for example the numerous camps run for special needs children - its impossible for them to move their entire infrastructure with all their medical facilities and wheelchair accessible bunkhouses to other camp grounds within such a short time span (or for that matter even a longer one). No negius involved for pushing for the opening of these camps (in my humble opinion).

Then there are camps who own their grounds and to be hit with exorbitant rental fees for out of state grounds is just way out of their budget. To ask the parents to pay an even higher price for camp than they already are to cover this new expense is unfair, thus deeming it untenable to move out of state.

And the list of very valid reasons for being unable to move out of state goes on.  While I applaud all of those camps who were able to pull it off, I do understand that this wasn't a possible option for many and I hope that the lawsuit/TRO works in their favor.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #958 on: June 28, 2020, 01:51:49 PM »
How do Cuomo & Co. rationalize that day camps are safer than overnight camps? Instead of camp being isolated, we have the same hundreds of kids going to camp daily, then returning home at night to their families (instead of staying on campus). I truly don't see how from a medical and scientific perspective this makes any sense.

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Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #959 on: June 28, 2020, 02:06:02 PM »
One point in favor of daycamps is that children are mingling with those from the same community as them. So their parents would meet in the grocery/pharmacy/park/whatever anyways. As opposed to sleepaway camps where you are mixing kids from all over and then sending them back home to spread whatever germs they picked up to a whole bunch of communities.

Not that I'm saying it's a good enough reason to cancel, but it's the only thing I thought of.

Oh and kids sleeping on top of each other may spread more germs, I don't know
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.