Poll

Will there be sleep away summer camp this year?

Yes
12 (20.7%)
NO
33 (56.9%)
Only second month
13 (22.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Voting closed: April 17, 2020, 03:42:36 PM

Author Topic: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?  (Read 173743 times)

Offline cgr

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 4377
  • Total likes: 1318
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #960 on: June 28, 2020, 02:10:47 PM »
Just got a copy of some forms a parent is being asked to sign to send their kid to camp in NY. One of the forms is to legally sign over guardianship to the camp.

What are the legal/tax/other ramifications of this?

Offline Mikes@Micro

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 994
  • Total likes: 328
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #961 on: June 28, 2020, 02:23:15 PM »
Just got a copy of some forms a parent is being asked to sign to send their kid to camp in NY. One of the forms is to legally sign over guardianship to the camp.

What are the legal/tax/other ramifications of this?
Do they have an automatic expiration date where guardianship reverts back?
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Offline cgr

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 4377
  • Total likes: 1318
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #962 on: June 28, 2020, 02:24:36 PM »
Do they have an automatic expiration date where guardianship reverts back?

There's a beginning and ending date but the parents leave that part blank- I'm assuming the camp fills it in after.

Offline Mikes@Micro

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 994
  • Total likes: 328
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #963 on: June 28, 2020, 02:27:02 PM »
There's a beginning and ending date but the parents leave that part blank- I'm assuming the camp fills it in after.
I assume this camp is taking the residency group but kids cant live w/o guardian present.....

How far south can this go?
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Offline cgr

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 4377
  • Total likes: 1318
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #964 on: June 28, 2020, 02:28:24 PM »
I assume this camp is taking the residency group but kids cant live w/o guardian present.....

I know they are. Question is what does it mean for the parents to give up guardianship for 2 months.

Offline Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3763
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #965 on: June 28, 2020, 02:32:50 PM »
One point in favor of daycamps is that children are mingling with those from the same community as them. So their parents would meet in the grocery/pharmacy/park/whatever anyways. As opposed to sleepaway camps where you are mixing kids from all over and then sending them back home to spread whatever germs they picked up to a whole bunch of communities.

Not that I'm saying it's a good enough reason to cancel, but it's the only thing I thought of.

Oh and kids sleeping on top of each other may spread more germs, I don't know
They wouldn't be leaving camp from 4 to 8 weeks.
Instead what we have right now, is sleepaway camps converted to day camps, so every evening all the campers return to their respective bungalow colonies, instead of staying isolated on campus for the summer.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5054
  • Total likes: 6390
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #966 on: June 28, 2020, 02:34:50 PM »
I know they are. Question is what does it mean for the parents to give up guardianship for 2 months.

Why would anyone sign over guardianship of their children? Tax repercussions aside, what happens if Children's Services deems the camp unsafe and take custody of the children because the camps are the guardians? This has the potential to be horrendous on so many levels.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline cgr

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 4377
  • Total likes: 1318
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #967 on: June 28, 2020, 02:41:18 PM »
Why would anyone sign over guardianship of their children? Tax repercussions aside, what happens if Children's Services deems the camp unsafe and take custody of the children because the camps are the guardians? This has the potential to be horrendous on so many levels.
a) you mention tax repercussions. What would those be? (parents can still claim dependency on tax return because child will be their care 6+ months of the year).
b) My understanding is that as long as there are living parents, guardianship does not grant the camp custody, and parents do not relinquish their rights to the child.

Offline Mikes@Micro

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 994
  • Total likes: 328
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #968 on: June 28, 2020, 02:43:04 PM »
Why would anyone sign over guardianship of their children? Tax repercussions aside, what happens if Children's Services deems the camp unsafe and take custody of the children because the camps are the guardians? This has the potential to be horrendous on so many levels.
I doubt you need to worry about CS, any social worker would conclude that the healthiest place to send the kid to is home with his parents.  And this is only on the small chance they seem it unsafe. But yes, it could open the door to a host of issues (specifically if later down the road can this be used to gain custiodianship) 


I know they are. Question is what does it mean for the parents to give up guardianship for 2 months.
Someone should speak to their lawyers /accountants.
I'm sure there is a way to structure it like an extended babysitting. As in fully the parents kid but they went out of town for a month and signed kid over to an aunt. I recall people going through formalities in the past.

Anyone familiar with  different of forms of guardianship?
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Offline cgr

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 4377
  • Total likes: 1318
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #969 on: June 28, 2020, 02:48:20 PM »
Someone should speak to their lawyers /accountants.

That was my advice... they seem to think that since their child's school (who's also running the camp) is asking for it, it's ok. I'm not that trusting... there's a reason why 98% of camps didn't go that route.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5054
  • Total likes: 6390
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #970 on: June 28, 2020, 02:51:30 PM »
a) you mention tax repercussions. What would those be? (parents can still claim dependency on tax return because child will be their care 6+ months of the year).
b) My understanding is that as long as there are living parents, guardianship does not grant the camp custody, and parents do not relinquish their rights to the child.

A) I have no idea if there would be any. I only said putting them aside, because that was the question asked, which I didnt have an answer to.

B) I think you may be putting too much faith in the bureaucracy of Children's Services. Based on the limited exposure I've had to that world, I'd take any and all possible precautions to avoid giving them any excuse to have any access or interaction with my family.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7711
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #971 on: June 28, 2020, 02:52:56 PM »
Maybe I'm colored by what/who I've seen in Israel, but I don't agree entirely. I purposefully did not name names of groups but I can.
A large segment of the Peleg faction sees this entire Corona thing as a plot of the Tziyoni Govt to take more control. This is based on their (right or wrong) preexisting distrust of the Govt.  plus their "hate" for anything that has to do with academics.
Ditto for the population of Meah Shearim.
I've spoken with quite a number of Satmarers who do not believe in the existence of Covid as a deathly Illness. They blame all deaths on the murderous doctors and nurses.

Not to agree or disagree with any of the opinions or views, I just want to point out that the distrust of government and medical establishment seems כשר פארדינט - rightfully earned.

The evidence seems to strongly suggest that there is a lot more unknown about this virus than that which is known. That ranges all the way from what the source of it is, through the spreading mechanism (though they seem to have settled mostly on aerosols - though that too seems to be a theory, rather than absolute knowledge), immunity of certain people, different symptoms, effects, effective treatment (and prevention) modalities, etc. With all of that, the initial response of an attempt to flatten the curve, in the realization that it's not likely to be stopped, but slowing the spread would help in not having the medical system overwhelmed as it was in northern Italy, thereby minimizing fatalities, was widely accepted. There was a certain humility that came with that message, that made it plausible and acceptable.

However, after that initial period, the narrative seems to have changed. Unlike in controlled societies like China (and possibly Iran) where the population is accustomed to government control, western societies in general, and especially the US have a tradition of personal liberties. What started off as a sincere concern for public health, turned into a no-end-in-sight overarching power and control grab, limiting people's freedoms, often in ways that defy common sense, and with obvious political motivations (I've mentioned the USNS Comfort being sent away from NY several times). Couple that with the disappearance of the somewhat humble tone that came across in the earlier messages, replaced by an arrogant, kefirah like tone.

Top all of this with what the Jewish communities experienced for about 6-8 weeks initially, and the followup experience. The feeling is that no-matter what, some people, even the most careful, got infected, while others didn't. Some of the infected suffered severe symptoms, while others had very mild symptoms. Anecdotal reports of mistreatment in hospitals, with actual reports of changing treatment modalities (remember the initial cry for ventilators? and then later on it seems like some of those and the intubations might have been detrimental).

Given this background, the distrust is literally called for. On the other hand, trust could have been so easily maintained with a different attitude, even if the majority of actions would have been similar. There was so much talk recently about training police in de-escalation. It would be good if policymakers would also take a cue regarding pandemic control policies. Strong handed measures that feel that way, cannot work properly in societies that are accustomed to personal freedom.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 03:24:44 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online Euclid

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 4911
  • Total likes: 6141
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #972 on: June 28, 2020, 03:06:13 PM »
Not to agree or disagree with any of the opinions or views, I just want to point out that the distrust of government and medical establishment seems כשר פארדינט - rightfully earned.

The evidence seems to strongly suggest that there is a lot more unknown about this virus than that which is known. That ranges all the way from what the source of it is, through the spreading mechanism (though they seem to have settled mostly on aerosols), immunity of certain people, different symptoms, effects, effective treatment (and prevention) modalities, etc. With all of that, the initial response of an attempt to flatten the curve, in the realization that it's not likely to be stopped, but slowing the spread would help in not having the medical system overwhelmed as it was in northern Italy, thereby minimizing fatalities, was widely accepted. There was a certain humility that came with that message, that made it plausible and acceptable.

However, after that initial period, the narrative seems to have changed. Unlike in controlled societies like China (and possibly Iran) where the population is accustomed to government control, western societies in general, and especially the US have a tradition of personal liberties. What started off as a sincere concern for public health, turned into a no-end-in-sight overarching power and control grab, limiting people's freedoms, often in ways that defy common sense, and with obvious political motivations (I've mentioned the USNS Comfort being sent away from NY several times). Couple that with the disappearance of the somewhat humble tone that came across in the earlier messages, replaced by an arrogant, kefirah like tone.

Top all of this with what the Jewish communities experienced for about 6-8 weeks initially, and the followup experience. The feeling is that no-matter what, some people, even the most careful, got infected, while others didn't. Some of the infected suffered severe symptoms, while others had very mild symptoms. Anecdotal reports of mistreatment in hospitals, with actual reports of changing treatment modalities (remember the initial cry for ventilators? and then later on it seems like some of those and the intubations might have been detrimental).

Given this background, the distrust is literally called for. On the other hand, trust could have been so easily maintained with a different attitude, even if the majority of actions would have been similar. There was so much talk recently about training police in de-escalation. It would be good if policymakers would also take a cue regarding pandemic control policies. Strong handed measures that feel that way, cannot work properly in societies that are accustomed to personal freedom.
All this explains mistrust in government (rightfully so!), but this mistrust unfortunately has extended to the whole of medical establishment. Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

ETA: very nice summary @ExGingi
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 03:10:35 PM by Euclid »

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7711
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #973 on: June 28, 2020, 03:23:41 PM »
All this explains mistrust in government (rightfully so!), but this mistrust unfortunately has extended to the whole of medical establishment. Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

ETA: very nice summary @ExGingi

The mistrust of the medical establishment is based on the same roots. Lack of humility and outright arrogance/Kefirah, and using current THEORIES to impose modalities (in public health pandemic control as well as individual treatments) masquerading as science/knowledge and not acknowledging shortcomings.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline iluv2travel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 1148
  • Total likes: 290
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #974 on: June 28, 2020, 04:24:06 PM »
Just got a copy of some forms a parent is being asked to sign to send their kid to camp in NY. One of the forms is to legally sign over guardianship to the camp.

What are the legal/tax/other ramifications of this?

Just curious, how old are the kids that they would be signing over for?

Offline cgr

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 4377
  • Total likes: 1318
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #975 on: June 28, 2020, 04:34:07 PM »
Just curious, how old are the kids that they would be signing over for?

One kid age 17.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #976 on: June 28, 2020, 11:55:38 PM »
Not to agree or disagree with any of the opinions or views, I just want to point out that the distrust of government and medical establishment seems כשר פארדינט - rightfully earned.

The evidence seems to strongly suggest that there is a lot more unknown about this virus than that which is known. That ranges all the way from what the source of it is, through the spreading mechanism (though they seem to have settled mostly on aerosols - though that too seems to be a theory, rather than absolute knowledge), immunity of certain people, different symptoms, effects, effective treatment (and prevention) modalities, etc. With all of that, the initial response of an attempt to flatten the curve, in the realization that it's not likely to be stopped, but slowing the spread would help in not having the medical system overwhelmed as it was in northern Italy, thereby minimizing fatalities, was widely accepted. There was a certain humility that came with that message, that made it plausible and acceptable.

However, after that initial period, the narrative seems to have changed. Unlike in controlled societies like China (and possibly Iran) where the population is accustomed to government control, western societies in general, and especially the US have a tradition of personal liberties. What started off as a sincere concern for public health, turned into a no-end-in-sight overarching power and control grab, limiting people's freedoms, often in ways that defy common sense, and with obvious political motivations (I've mentioned the USNS Comfort being sent away from NY several times). Couple that with the disappearance of the somewhat humble tone that came across in the earlier messages, replaced by an arrogant, kefirah like tone.

Top all of this with what the Jewish communities experienced for about 6-8 weeks initially, and the followup experience. The feeling is that no-matter what, some people, even the most careful, got infected, while others didn't. Some of the infected suffered severe symptoms, while others had very mild symptoms. Anecdotal reports of mistreatment in hospitals, with actual reports of changing treatment modalities (remember the initial cry for ventilators? and then later on it seems like some of those and the intubations might have been detrimental).

Given this background, the distrust is literally called for. On the other hand, trust could have been so easily maintained with a different attitude, even if the majority of actions would have been similar. There was so much talk recently about training police in de-escalation. It would be good if policymakers would also take a cue regarding pandemic control policies. Strong handed measures that feel that way, cannot work properly in societies that are accustomed to personal freedom.
Nuance, please. If you’re point is that people are stupid, I won’t argue. If your point is that you’re right to throw out medical knowledge and rely on your instincts based on your faulty understanding of what’s going on, then

1) Government and doctors are *not* the same. This seems to need repeating, so just repeat that a few times to yourself. Please don’t bring Cuomo into a legitimate discussion of the facts. Ever again.
2) Theory is all we have in a lot more areas of medicine than you seem to think, and yes we base lots of medical (and policy) decisions on those (current theories are a bit better than those we used in medieval times). When informed theory is all you have, that’s a lot better than some ill-informed laymen deciding personal medical policy that convenient for themselves but badly misinformed.
3) Aerosolized transmission has been proven many times and has been common medical knowledge for months.
4) There is in fact a lot more known about this virus than is known about many areas of medicine that have been studied for years. Doctors didn’t know much about the virus right when it came out (obviously). They know a *lot* about it by now, and have for months.
5) When doctors were first faced with the virus they handled it improperly because they hadn’t seen it before. That’s not something wrong with medicine, that’s life. Go underwrite a policy for something you never heard of until last week with unquantifiable risks and an unknown payout and let’s see what you come up. Hopefully outcomes are already improving as we have discovered a lot about it. That’s great, and something to cheer. It’s presumably somewhat safer to get COVID now than it was a few months ago. But we haven’t discovered a legitimate cure or vaccine yet.
6) Obviously people who were careful after exposure still got it. They were exposed before they were careful. Obviously some people who weren’t careful didn’t get it (yet). Nothing infects everybody all of the time. But don’t tempt fate too much.
7) Unfortunately you’re right, many doctors are kofrim. I beg of you, should someone need urgent chemotherapy or other medical treatment, please still advise them to accept the medicine and advice being offered to them. Turns out, the doctors’ personal beliefs have been and still are completely irrelevant to the advice they’re giving.
8 ) If it can’t be done, please explain how every single other Western country has largely reopened and managed to prevent a resurgence, despite having been hit far earlier than the US.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Mikes@Micro

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 994
  • Total likes: 328
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #977 on: June 29, 2020, 12:57:06 AM »
Turns out, the doctors’ personal beliefs have been and still are completely irrelevant to the advice they’re giving.


A doctors personal beliefs, particularly the beliefs of a policy setting doctor very much affect their advice.

Maybe you meant to say beliefs dont effect the actual treatment?

This is why Chayim Aruchim and other organizations are so important.
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Online shapsam

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2017
  • Posts: 3017
  • Total likes: 637
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #978 on: June 29, 2020, 08:15:53 AM »
A doctors personal beliefs, particularly the beliefs of a policy setting doctor very much affect their advice.

Maybe you meant to say beliefs dont effect the actual treatment?

This is why Chayim Aruchim and other organizations are so important.
You mean that when those doctors that signed a letter that protests are ok, had their personal beliefs affect their advise?? I thought for sure it was purely medical professionalism.  ???

Online yungermanchik

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 2667
  • Total likes: 2047
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Re: Will there be Sleep Away Camp this summer?
« Reply #979 on: June 29, 2020, 09:10:03 AM »
1) Government and doctors are *not* the same. This seems to need repeating, so just repeat that a few times to yourself.
That is incorrect! Doctors are being "guided" by the CDC which is a highly politicized government organization. In fact, my doctor told me one thing over the tele-medicine appointment (when what he says can get him in trouble) and then told his shul something entirely different.   
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.