Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?

[EliJelly]

Yes our government is not perfect. Having everyone follow the laws of their religion is the definition of insanity. How many different sets of laws would we have in this country?

Just to give you the context. How about God forbid the government becomes one day so liberal, deeming doing circumcisions for boys the decision for the child to make as he becomes an adult, and not the parent's choice, what would you expect us to do on the baby's 8th day while the case is being challenged  in court??

[avromie7]

The only issue is that unfortunately  shutting down every shul has not helped saved any lives at all. even the places that shut down very early has the same numbers like any where else, hashem yishmor! queens county has more cases than Brooklyn county w/o any shuls or the sort open. They know they can not stop this through any actions ( look at the princess cruise ship)They are attempting to slow it down. And with the subways running the restaurants,banks, supermarkets, pharmacies, hardware stores etc etc etc all open, they are doing a horrible job at it. We only have the eibersther to rely on. And being fully mevatel all public tefillos of any sort, even with social distancing and following all rules, is not necessarily fully agreed on by all rabbbanim. You are over simplifying this situation! Most of the very chashuve rabbanim in the vchassidishe velt have some sort of operational minyan and they are all very well versed in the Halachos and severity of pikuach nefesh.

This board is filled with DAC, here is definitely another competitor for the DACOTYA.

[yelped]

That's your opinion, there are some that feel otherwise. I'm not one of the "some"  but I learned in life to respect others decisions regardless if I understand it or not.  While for the time being I don't agree  with their position I do get thier perspective.

You have a right to stay home and "protect yourself", others have a right to do as they wish if they are within the law. The government has a right to change the laws if they deem so is necessary.

Sorry, not everyone is entitled to have an opinion and abide by it. רבי אליעזר שמותי הוא.

The only issue is that ...

Wow. Please inform yourself before taking a position and making stupid decisions that endanger peoples' lives.

[S209]

Yes our government is not perfect. Having everyone follow the laws of their religion is the definition of insanity. How many different sets of laws would we have in this country?

True, which is why we *nearly* always must adhere to the law of the land. Are you saying you cannot think of anything that a government could sanction which would be morally reprehensible and you individually would break the law to go against?

Of course these cases are extreme but you should look into the laws of Inquisition-era Spain, WW2-era Germany, and slavery-era America.. also, abortion era America 

[moko]

Just to give you the context. How about God forbid the government becomes one day so liberal, deeming doing circumcisions for boys the decision for the child to make as he becomes an adult, and not the parent's choice, what would you expect us to do on the baby's 8th day while the case is being challenged  in court??

that's not so far fetched... There already have been municipalities in the USA who had it as a question on the ballot

[EliJelly]

that's not so far fetched... There already have been municipalities in the USA who had it as a question on the ballot

That's why I gave him an example in real life, without going back to the Inquisition era.

[aygart]

Yes our government is not perfect. Having everyone follow the laws of their religion is the definition of insanity. How many different sets of laws would we have in this country?

Around 89,004

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/governments/cb12-161.html

[CountValentine]

Just to give you the context. How about God forbid the government becomes one day so liberal, deeming doing circumcisions for boys the decision for the child to make as he becomes an adult, and not the parent's choice, what would you expect us to do on the baby's 8th day while the case is being challenged  in court??

We can come up with "what if" for every religion.
Having everyone follow their religious laws would never work. You don't see the problem with this approach?
What about religions that believe in faith healing? You OK with that?

[hvaces42]

That's why I gave him an example in real life, without going back to the Inquisition era.

The people davening with minyanim in shul or on the streets or on porches in my neighborhood see themselves as modern-day Marranos.

[Dan]

The only issue is that unfortunately  shutting down every shul has not helped saved any lives at all

Wow. Just wow.
@Yehuda57 please pass the bleach.

[Yehuda57]

Yes our government is not perfect. Having everyone follow the laws of their religion is the definition of insanity. How many different sets of laws would we have in this country?

I'm not advocating not following the rule of law. I'm saying it's not black and white. Any country has the right to ban religious practice that is harmful to its citizens. But trusting that government is acting in its citizen's best interests and not merely anti-Semitic is another story.

Do you see why some wouldn't trust a government that tells them not to pray because of a virus they've never heard of after the same government almost banned circumcision based on completely fabricated health claims?
 
When you say, "challenge it in court", do you mean continue to do so clandestinely and challenge or stop and challenge?

Bottom line is that Jewish law almost always mandates following the rule of law. And yes, "almost always" isn't black and white. That's just too bad.

As it pertains to Corona, the question is primarily a medical one, not a legal one. Which is why most Rabbinic leadership closed Shuls *before* government mandated it.

[EliJelly]

The people davening with minyanim in shul or on the streets or on porches in my neighborhood see themselves as modern-day Marranos.

Yearning to be, finally got the chance

[yelped]

The people davening with minyanim in shul or on the streets or on porches in my neighborhood see themselves as modern-day Marranos.

Strictly porches (no backyards) can be done right, but unfortunately there are still too many reckless idiots out there, as demonstrated by this thread, that will take that as an affirmative to go ahead with their Indoor minyanim or backyard minyanim.

[Shkop]

queens county has more cases than Brooklyn county w/o any shuls or the sort open.

Huh? Both counties have well over 2 million residents. The Orthodox community of Queens, as large as it is, is a very small percentage of the borough. The fact that Queens has more cases than Brooklyn does not prove that shuls being closed does not work.

Most of the very chashuve rabbanim in the vchassidishe velt have some sort of operational minyan and they are all very well versed in the Halachos and severity of pikuach nefesh.

How do you know this? I don't know how you view "chashuv" but I wouldn't consider such a peson chushuv

[Yehuda57]

The only issue is that unfortunately  shutting down every shul has not helped saved any lives at all. even the places that shut down very early has the same numbers like any where else, hashem yishmor! queens county has more cases than Brooklyn county w/o any shuls or the sort open. They know they can not stop this through any actions ( look at the princess cruise ship)They are attempting to slow it down. And with the subways running the restaurants,banks, supermarkets, pharmacies, hardware stores etc etc etc all open, they are doing a horrible job at it. We only have the eibersther to rely on. And being fully mevatel all public tefillos of any sort, even with social distancing and following all rules, is not necessarily fully agreed on by all rabbbanim. You are over simplifying this situation! Most of the very chashuve rabbanim in the vchassidishe velt have some sort of operational minyan and they are all very well versed in the Halachos and severity of pikuach nefesh.

Holy mother frying schnitzel

[Shkop]

We can come up with "what if" for every religion.
Having everyone follow their religious laws would never work. You don't see the problem with this approach?
What about religions that believe in faith healing? You OK with that?

The United States allows everyone to follow their religion. Its been working for a long time.

[aygart]

"One may well ask: “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all.”"

No the obligation to follow laws is not absolute, but to even discuss any laws pertaining to this as being those unjust laws is utterly ridiculous.

[aygart]

The United States allows everyone to follow their religion. Its been working for a long time.

That is not even close to absolute

[KSMH]

They probably are excluded under executive order 107 par.2 (7) leaving the home for an educational, religious, or political reason but if that entire item would be removed or if religious reasons had not been mentioned in the first place that would be constitutional. For those who are claiming letter of law of the land as their guide they should go to shul.

Correct on 107, but even if removed there are still many businesses allowed to operate that are considered essential by NJ which in reality are not, such as building affordable housing. Due to these lapses in law, restrictions on religious gatherings would be deemed illegal.

I am guessing, without looking such laws in NY would suffer the same issues. There is a reason it took Cuomo so long to get his act together. Even now I wonder if it'll be upheld in a court of law.

[hvaces42]

Strictly porches (no backyards) can be done right, but unfortunately there are still too many reckless idiots out there, as demonstrated by this thread, that will take that as an affirmative to go ahead with their Indoor minyanim or backyard minyanim.

How many gedarim do we have that are in place for things that are far less than sakanas nefashos? Think harchakos etc. The geder to not killing your neighbor, friend, shulmate is not making a minyan. Why is that so darn difficult to appreciate? If one person messes up one minyan and one person dies because of it then ALL the minyanim were for naught.