Poll

Is your shul secretly open right now?

Shul is closed and locked NYC
45 (40.2%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning NYC
6 (5.4%)
Shul is officially not closed NYC
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked OOT
28 (25%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning OOT
2 (1.8%)
Shul is officially not closed OOT
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked Lakewood
31 (27.7%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning Lakewood
0 (0%)
Shul is officially not closed Lakewood
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 112

Author Topic: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?  (Read 37966 times)

Offline chevron

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2020, 01:47:44 PM »
You should do what ur Rav tells you.

But think about it for a minute.

A Grocery Store is OK.
USPS is OK.
WallMart OK.
Target OK.

Shull not ok.

Maybe we shall be open with proper cleaning and distancing guidance in place where enforcement is stricter then USPS or Target.

Like @Dan  I haven't gone to the store in 4+ weeks.

People in my family who go to store wear mask, gloves, go in, go out. they go early in the morning when it just opens to avoid any lines or crowds and even I'm against it.

Rabbanim should set an example. It's not a competition of quid pro quo.

Bh we got lucky Purim seuda in Miami. I wouldn't want to have been around for a moshiach seuda.

For me, I feel it's critical we  institute broad and sweeping rules.

God willing the virus is slowly dying out and being managed.

Critical care will get better as doctors better understand the virus and treatment.

But regardless, I think it's hefker to just flaunt these laws.





Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2020, 01:48:51 PM »
Why do you feel סכנת נפשות requires a more strict approach than any other mitzvah?
Because it overpowers almost all other mitzvahs? And because davening with a minyan is not a mitzvah?

Do you rely on the percentage of bugs that FDA allows in foodstuff?
Jews are more machmir.

Come on. FDA cares about health. Jews don't eat bugs like they don't eat pig.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline S209

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2020, 01:49:38 PM »
If you didn't go to a grocery store in 4 weeks then kol hakovod. But did you disinfect every item that entered your home for the past 4 weeks?
Including ready made meals and food?
Even if you did, many dont, they just wont understand how this virus transfers or follow rules.

We will not be becoming asians in 4 weeks, where we can suddenly follow instructions and rules.
Ah, I think I follow your logic. Because not everyone fully understands every single possible way to be extra careful in every instance, we should blatantly disregard the most basic and fundamental concept of stopping the spread- NOT GATHERING- so you can feel good about yourself for a few minutes?

Wait, no, that actually makes no sense to me. Care to explain?
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Offline S209

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2020, 01:50:49 PM »
Most doctors just disagree with your "theory".
Source? He didn’t quote a theory, he stated facts, you are the one proposing a theory. Please post where your theory and “most doctors” statistic are from
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Offline S209

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2020, 01:52:23 PM »
Name one instance where they said so when going to Shul was in itself a sakana?

It doesn't bother me so much that you're being irresponsible with other peoples lives, what bothers me is that your entire life is likely worthless. If you are going to a Minyan when God clearly wants you not to, then all the times you did go are not because God did want you to. What a waste.
This encapsulates many of my thoughts very concisely. Well done.
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Offline flatbush guy

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2020, 01:53:49 PM »
Because it overpowers almost all other mitzvahs? And because davening with a minyan is not a mitzvah? Come on. FDA cares about health. Jews don't eat bugs like they don't eat pig.
my point is that a we dont rely on what the Government believes is safe.The responsibility they have is much less than a frum yid has.The fact that they allow open supermarkets does not necessarily mean halacha would allow that and therefore using the Government permission for supermarkets does not mean that for yidden, shuls should be open

Offline KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2020, 01:54:52 PM »


Name one instance where they said so when going to Shul was in itself a sakana?

It doesn't bother me so much that you're being irresponsible with other peoples lives, what bothers me is that your entire life is likely worthless. If you are going to a Minyan when God clearly wants you not to, then all the times you did go are not because God did want you to. What a waste.

I am not going to Shul, because my Rav said we shall be closed.


I stayed home before the CDC recommended social distancing [look at my earlier posts] . When I go out in public I use a N95 mask that I have sitting in my house for a few years.

You decided God dosnt want us to daven with minyan. If your Rav thinks so then dont go to Minyan. But if ones Rav thinks there is a setting where it is permitted dont just say his opinion is worth nothing.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline S209

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2020, 01:55:20 PM »
my point is that a we dont rely on what the Government believes is safe.The responsibility they have is much less than a frum yid has.The fact that they allow open supermarkets does not necessarily mean halacha would allow that and therefore using the Government permission for supermarkets does not mean that for yidden, shuls should be open
+1000

Ironically, all those screaming government overreach about shutting shuls are the same ones saying “Why do we have to be more machmir than the government?”

I find it funny as heck.
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Offline S209

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2020, 01:55:59 PM »

I am not going to Shul, because my Rav said we shall be closed.


I stayed home before the CDC recommended social distancing [look at my earlier posts] . When I go out in public I use a N95 mask that I have sitting in my house for a few years.

You decided God dosnt want us to daven with minyan. If your Rav thinks so then dont go to Minyan. But if ones Rav thinks there is a setting where it is permitted dont just say his opinion is worth nothing.
I don’t disagree with this but this is not what you said upthread
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2020, 01:57:22 PM »
Why do you feel סכנת נפשות requires a more strict approach than any other mitzvah?
That's basic Judaism.
I think you need to spell it out...you can be mechalel.shabbos for a safeik pikuach nefesh...SHABBOS...are you hearing me SHABBOS...YOM KIPPUR...FOR A...SAFEIK
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Offline Dan

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2020, 02:02:59 PM »
I think you need to spell it out...you can be mechalel.shabbos for a safeik pikuach nefesh...SHABBOS...are you hearing me SHABBOS...YOM KIPPUR...FOR A...SAFEIK

Something is seriously wrong with our education system that this needs to be said or is questioned.

This is what Judaism is about:
https://www.facebook.com/jewishmedia/videos/778810439147507/

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1510158/jewish/Higher-Than-Heaven.htm
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline S209

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2020, 02:04:37 PM »
That's basic Judaism.
WHY DOES THIS NEED TO BE SAID?!?! We need a hair-pulling-out emoji
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2020, 02:05:14 PM »
Something is seriously wrong with our education system that this needs to be said or is questioned.

This is what Judaism is about:
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1510158/jewish/Higher-Than-Heaven.htm
Look at who today's rebbeim in todays yeshiva are...the same dummies making the minyanim... ;D
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Offline chevron

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2020, 02:05:33 PM »
If you didn't go to a grocery store in 4 weeks then kol hakovod. But did you disinfect every item that entered your home for the past 4 weeks?
Including ready made meals and food?
Even if you did, many dont, they just wont understand how this virus transfers or follow rules.

We will not be becoming asians in 4 weeks, where we can suddenly follow instructions and rules.

That's fairly easy, I don't wipe down everything but most items not perishable will clean on its own I just leave by door.

Perishables are fairly easy anyways, you should be washing your hands with soap before and after you handle to avoid cross contamination and food borne illnesses.

How about the many who justify talking in shul because it has become such a familiar place ?

I just think it's opposed to Judaism to take risks.. make a fence around the Torah.. why did the rabbi's in mishna and talmud always warn to be careful?

My peeve is against chumros in general.. where everyone insists on being so strict for small minhag or chumra then finds every loophole in the system to be makel when it supports their frumkeit.

The gemara makes fun of 9 types of people who are strict. One with blood on his face because he closes his eyes to avoid women and walks into the wall.

On the topic of being strict, a triple board certified internist told me, that when he told them to close the shuls they didn't listen.

He says but if I say someone needs to eat on yom Kippur you listen to me and force them to eat, what is essentially a lo sasse m'doraisa.. now I tell you to close the shuls which are not m'doraisa and all of a sudden my opinion isn't taken here.


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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2020, 02:05:45 PM »
Why do you feel סכנת נפשות requires a more strict approach than any other mitzvah?
Because that is what chazal say very clearly?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline good sam

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2020, 02:06:22 PM »
What part of Dina D'Malchusa not in a shaas hashmad dont you get?
This is not dependent upon DDD; it is much more basic. It is a cha'shash pikuach nefesh, and in certain cities (at least), the rabonim have paskened not to do it.
It's much simpler. If the rabbis are telling us it's the proper thing to not daven with a minyan, what message does it send if they themselves are violating the psak?
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2020, 02:07:45 PM »


I think you need to spell it out...you can be mechalel.shabbos for a safeik pikuach nefesh...SHABBOS...are you hearing me SHABBOS...YOM KIPPUR...FOR A...SAFEIK

According to many
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/preventable-death-overview/odds-of-dying/
We have some pretty high chances of dying based on our "daily routine" maybe we should stop doing many stuff, based on Sfek sfeikah.
While Covid's chance of death is not estimated yet, its pretty low for the very young,  considerably less then some of the others listed.

I don’t disagree with this but this is not what you said upthread

Can you please point to what post.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2020, 02:09:22 PM »
It's much simpler. If the rabbis are telling us it's the proper thing to not daven with a minyan, what message does it send if they themselves are violating the psak?
I have not heard anything from my rav. He, as always, has been ambivalent about it all. His wishy washy approach actually cost someone his life. The shul had minyanim for a few days the week after purim and an old man who didnt know better came. He is now in a box. I can clearly point to the day that he cam eto shul and shouldnt have as the day that killed him. He didnt go anywhere else but shul.
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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2020, 02:09:41 PM »
It's much simpler. If the rabbis are telling us it's the proper thing to not daven with a minyan, what message does it send if they themselves are violating the psak?
Are you perhaps generalizing a bit? They are not a monolithic group.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2020, 02:09:55 PM »
Can you please point to what post.
here’s one
That's my point, as per government own reasoning we should be open.

If government can tell us we can go to a grocery while keeping distance why cant we go to shul while doing so.

The shuls where  the attendants have an issue adhering to rules should close.

Our shuls are essential.  There are many instances where chazal told us to go to shul in time of tzara.

By government own reasoning this will end with heard immunity. If any community has it, it's ours.
And another
You should do what ur Rav tells you.

But think about it for a minute.

A Grocery Store is OK.
USPS is OK.
WallMart OK.
Target OK.

Shull not ok.

Maybe we shall be open with proper cleaning and distancing guidance in place where enforcement is stricter then USPS or Target.
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