Poll

Is your shul secretly open right now?

Shul is closed and locked NYC
45 (40.9%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning NYC
6 (5.5%)
Shul is officially not closed NYC
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked OOT
26 (23.6%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning OOT
2 (1.8%)
Shul is officially not closed OOT
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked Lakewood
31 (28.2%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning Lakewood
0 (0%)
Shul is officially not closed Lakewood
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 110

Author Topic: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?  (Read 8349 times)

Offline chevron

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2020, 02:10:46 PM »
It's much simpler. If the rabbis are telling us it's the proper thing to not daven with a minyan, what message does it send if they themselves are violating the psak?

This, because as discussed, people these days are raised to emulate gedolim and rabbanim.

I would bet good money that many say " the Rav only closed the shul because of pressure etc but he's not really against minyanim.. look he has his own"

Etc etc etc

Offline chevron

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2020, 02:13:54 PM »

According to many
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/preventable-death-overview/odds-of-dying/
We have some pretty high chances of dying based on our "daily routine" maybe we should stop doing many stuff, based on Sfek sfeikah.
While Covid's chance of death is not estimated yet, its pretty low for the very young,  considerably less then some of the others listed.

Can you please point to what post.

I really hope you don't believe this and are really trolling.

Mishna, talmud and commentaries discuss at length, the precautions one should take.

We have free choice, apparently you chose to be an idiot.


Offline Dan

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2020, 02:14:49 PM »

According to many
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/preventable-death-overview/odds-of-dying/
We have some pretty high chances of dying based on our "daily routine" maybe we should stop doing many stuff, based on Sfek sfeikah.
While Covid's chance of death is not estimated yet, its pretty low for the very young,  considerably less then some of the others listed.

Can you please point to what post.
OMG.
Do you not understand the difference between lifetime odds of death (which are 100%...) and odds of death from a single pandemic in a short period of time?

So krum!
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2020, 02:17:30 PM »
WHY DOES THIS NEED TO BE SAID?!?! We need a hair-pulling-out emoji
I was a Hatzolah member for many years in a neighborhood that does not allow the members to drive their cars back on shabbos. They have goyim driving and today, in contravention of Rav Moshe's psak, they even rely on the goy to bring the ambulance to calls sometimes and to drive the ambulance to Manhattan. On Rosh Hashanah there was a call on the street where a woman collapsed. I was the first one there and was treating the patient. It was right near the ambulance and in those days we were able to still drive to the hospital without goyim. The posek for our Hatzolah neighborhood was the ruv of our patient. He just happening to walk by. As we are loading her into the ambulance he says "Maybe you go with a goy." I turned to him and said...your psak is that a safek pikuach nefesh goes only with a yid. Sorry, all of a sudden because you see it in person your heartstrings get tugged about chillul shabbos. We took her to the hospital. She was dead in 24 hours.

Even the Rav needs to be reminded of the halacha sometimes. 
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Offline aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2020, 02:17:59 PM »


.
While Covid's chance of death is not estimated yet, its pretty low for the very young,  considerably less then some of the others listed.

Can you please point to what post.
This is the attitude which has killed so many. The blood of those like the Novomisker ztl is on the hands of those saying this. The destroyed families where money is being collected for the 10 yesomim are on the hands of those saying this. All these people caught it from someone with this atitude.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2020, 02:25:56 PM »
This is the attitude which has killed so many. The blood of those like the Novomisker ztl is on the hands of those saying this. The destroyed families where money is being collected for the 10 yesomim are on the hands of those saying this. All these people caught it from someone with this atitude.
Not all, as most of the world didn’t realize it was here that early on so it wasn’t that attitude that did it, but yes, unfortunately it is the truth for many.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2020, 02:38:19 PM »
Not all, as most of the world didn’t realize it was here that early on so it wasn’t that attitude that did it, but yes, unfortunately it is the truth for many.
Yes some may have gotten it regardless but others would not have. Also, at the beginning it was more that this attitude was more prevalent than that it was being totally ignored.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline Moishebatchy

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2020, 03:05:52 PM »
Who said it's illegal?

How about R’ Chaim Kanievsky? Is he holy enough for you?

No? How about R’ Gershon Edelstein, who specifically had a picture publicized of him davening b’yechidus “so that others should see, and understand that if I can daven without a minyan, then so should they”?!

Wake up, people. It’s not about the black-and-white of a government decree. The government is not your freaking babysitter. Just because you found a loophole in something they said, that doesn’t necessarily make it suddenly healthy and wise to do so!!!! Just because you’re allowed to buy cigarettes when you’re older than 18, for example, that doesn’t mean that smoking is healthy for you... it simply means that there’s a limit to how much the government can be your babysitter, and after which point you have to GROW THE $&@% UP and take responsibility for your own actions.

If this is something that EVERY MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL HAS SAID SHOULD NOT BE DONE, and ALMOST EVERY RABBINICAL AUTHORITY OF NOTE HAS AGREED WITH, to the point that RAV CHAIM KANIEVSKY EXPLICITLY SAID THAT YOU CAN REPORT PEOPLE WHO MAKE ILLEGAL MINYANIM TO THE AUTHORITIES, then why do you have to think you’re smarter?! Why?! Why?! WHY?!?! WHY?!?!?! Did not enough Jews die yet to convince you?!?!

If you contract COVID-19 while attending a minyan these days (even if you found a “loophole” in the secular law for that) and die from it, do you really think you’ll be welcomed into Shamayim with open arms as someone who died “al kiddush Hashem”?! Or do you think you’ll be getting the express elevator to the basement, for violating divrei chachamim and explicitly going against the words of virtually every gadol of note b’zman hazeh?!

In summary... my main point is: it’s not just government laws that can make something illegal. Commands from our gedolim can make something “illegal” for a G-d fearing Jew, too. And even if you find a valid “loophole”, you’re still an idiot, and your blood - and the blood of others - is on your hands.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2020, 03:15:41 PM »
No freakin Rabbonim in BP came out PUBLICLY...there are those that defied it publicly.
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Offline Iz

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2020, 03:21:28 PM »
No freakin Rabbonim in BP came out PUBLICLY...there are those that defied it publicly.
however if it's them or a family member c"v they would say different unfortunately
This thread has (now) devolved into מבזה את החכמים ר"ל, in my opinion, so I am done here.

Offline yochiek93

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2020, 03:23:48 PM »
This thread has (now) devolved into מבזה את החכמים ר"ל, in my opinion, so I am done here.
no that wasn't the point of my post at all, and since it could be misunderstood as that I deleted it.
I just personally know about that story, and others.
With regard to the rules they have in place I would definitely not say anything since they are the rabbonim
But in an emergency that's not the time to be machmir and the rabbonim have said that time and time again.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 03:29:03 PM by yochiek93 »

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2020, 03:29:00 PM »
This thread has (now) devolved into מבזה את החכמים ר"ל, in my opinion, so I am done here.
Name names of BP rabbonim that came out and said my shul is closed and actually did close it. You cant.
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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2020, 03:30:51 PM »
The Ruv in my shul - ultra-Chasiddish FTR - closed the shul completely and called every mispallel personally to make sure they're staying home. No loopholes, no nothing. The night before yom tov I observed the Ruv's son in law at the mailbox signing the mechiras chometz shtar, gloves and all; the Ruv wouldn't even let him in the house.

Yet some of my neighbors are making street minyanim with no social distancing, and a freaking kiddush. You can't fix stupid, but I am extremely pleased that my Ruv at least is doing the right thing.
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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2020, 03:43:54 PM »


I just confirmed what I knew to be true that my shteibel has been open for the Rabbi and his immediate family and his cousin and his immediate family who all live locally. I dont really have an issue with that. Except, now over yom tov there were at least 3 other people that joined the rabbi's minyan.   I also confirmed that  the other shteibel I daven in has been having daily minyanim too. I'm seriously considering not going back to these shuls after all of this is over. Dont really know what the alternatives are either.

There has been a minyan near my house that I wasn't participating because of their lack of Social distancing.

They are finally taking it seriously,so YT I started davening with the minyan, although I stay in my backyard.

You should do what ur Rav tells you.

But think about it for a minute.

A Grocery Store is OK.
USPS is OK.
WallMart OK.
Target OK.

Shull not ok.

Maybe we shall be open with proper cleaning and distancing guidance in place where enforcement is stricter then USPS or Target.

1. Your just parroting one of these WA clips that were going around..

2. Show me the shul davening indoors that has been enforcing the Social distancing + not small confined areas..And then we can have a conversation..




You decided God dosnt want us to daven with minyan. If your Rav thinks so then dont go to Minyan. But if ones Rav thinks there is a setting where it is permitted dont just say his opinion is worth nothing.

99.9% of Rabonim from every single Jewish group ( Modox,Yeshivish, Chassidish, ) have said that you should not daven with minyan and closed their shuls...

But "HE DECIDED" that God doesn't want us to daven with minyan.

I'm starting to get your train of thought

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2020, 03:46:32 PM »
I know the Rov of my shul and a few of other shuls as well, are keeping the shuls to themselves. They have a private shul, mikvah, and Sifrei Torah for them and their children. Technically speaking, there is nothing wrong or risky about having a minyan if done properly. The fear is that it won't be done properly.
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