Poll

Is your shul secretly open right now?

Shul is closed and locked NYC
45 (40.2%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning NYC
6 (5.4%)
Shul is officially not closed NYC
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked OOT
28 (25%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning OOT
2 (1.8%)
Shul is officially not closed OOT
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked Lakewood
31 (27.7%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning Lakewood
0 (0%)
Shul is officially not closed Lakewood
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 112

Author Topic: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?  (Read 37944 times)

Offline Lurker

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  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #120 on: April 12, 2020, 07:11:42 PM »
In all fairness, the DOJ has said they will be fighting state and local bans on religious gatherings. That said, I don't know why your Constitutional rights should be a factor in deciding whether or not to close your place of worship during a pandemic with lives on the line.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline chevron

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #121 on: April 12, 2020, 07:14:57 PM »
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Berakhot.1?lang=bi

וְכָל הַנֶּאֱכָלִים לְיוֹם אֶחָד, מִצְוָתָן עַד שֶׁיַּעֲלֶה עַמּוּד הַשָּׁחַר. אִם כֵּן, לָמָּה אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים עַד חֲצוֹת, כְּדֵי לְהַרְחִיק אֶת הָאָדָם מִן הָעֲבֵרָה:

People need to eat and unfortunately you can't eat at home without food.

No one needs to go to shul. Your yetzer Hara wants you to..

Your yetzer tov wants you to stay alive.

If you are going to shul in a pandemic, risking your lives and others, you're at the very least a chasid shoteh.

All your pilpul logic arguments here belie an absolute stupidity and underlines a series failure in frum education.

Common sense seems to be uncommon.


Online Euclid

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #122 on: April 12, 2020, 07:16:27 PM »
צדיק ורע לכל

Offline chevron

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #123 on: April 12, 2020, 07:19:43 PM »
In all fairness, the DOJ has said they will be fighting state and local bans on religious gatherings. That said, I don't know why your Constitutional rights should be a factor in deciding whether or not to close your place of worship during a pandemic with lives on the line.

That is a part of a broader issue of constitutional rights, state vs federal powers and checks and balances.

Just because right now it's critical, doesn't mean we should allow unchecked powers.

It's a very fundamental church and state separation.

With that said, the average frum guy in boro park and Monsey didn't take secular studies and cannot fathom why the government doesn't close shuls etc and thus finds a justification for going to shul because it's good enough for Joe dirt...


Online aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #124 on: April 12, 2020, 07:36:39 PM »
צדיק ורע לכל
more likely to fit into כנוס לרשעים רע להן ורע לעולם


ETA: I do not mean to say that every single person who joins any minyan fits into that description, but MANY most definitely do. The "I know better" attitude is not what hashem wants.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 07:49:41 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #125 on: April 12, 2020, 07:42:13 PM »
In all fairness, the DOJ has said they will be fighting state and local bans on religious gatherings. That said, I don't know why your Constitutional rights should be a factor in deciding whether or not to close your place of worship during a pandemic with lives on the line.
This is the quote:

Attorney General William Barr "is monitoring (government) regulation of religious services," said Justice Department spokeswoman Kerri Kupec on Twitter late Saturday. "While social distancing policies are appropriate during this emergency, they must be applied evenhandedly (and) not single out religious orgs."

If they are equally applied to all gatherings then they can include religious ones. If they are qually applied to all gatherings except food and the like that will also be able to include religious ones. Stop with the ignorant interpretations of the constitution.
It's a very fundamental church and state separation.
Separation fo church and state is not anywhere in the constitution.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yochiek93

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #126 on: April 12, 2020, 07:42:31 PM »
Please stay out of this discussion. You'll never understand. Thank you.
are you seriously saying this?


Why are people so easily dismissive of people's lives, if it isn't their own?
Can anyone who believes it is right to daven with a minyan show me any mekor that one must in this situation?
Because seeing the death toll in real life I can't believe one exists.

Online aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #127 on: April 12, 2020, 07:43:23 PM »
are you seriously saying this?


Why are people so easily dismissive of people's lives, if it isn't their own?
Can anyone who believes it is right to daven with a minyan show me any mekor that one must in this situation?
Because seeing the death toll in real life I can't believe one exists.
It is the same arrogance shown here.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yelped

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #128 on: April 12, 2020, 07:47:45 PM »
The problem is that people who say stupid things are too stupid to realize that they are stupid and it shouldn't be said.

Online aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #129 on: April 12, 2020, 07:53:09 PM »
The problem is that people who say stupid things are too stupid to realize that they are stupid and it shouldn't be said.
Hold this rule for future use whenever you see someone say something which would be better left unsaid even if they truly do believe it. Their judgment about the thing itself is no better than their judgement about talking about it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online avromie7

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #130 on: April 12, 2020, 07:54:57 PM »
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline YossieW

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Offline ushdadude

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #132 on: April 12, 2020, 07:56:50 PM »
Who said it's illegal?
Did you read the actual text of the executive order? Nothing bans religious gatherings with proper social distancing.

The federal government did not ban it and the constitution would void such  an order that would do so. Social distancing in a grocery and USPS can be done but not outside in your backyard or in a shul.

I know of a very  recognized shul with a huge hall that has a guard that limits the amount of ppl entering and every one is spread out. Also no older ppl allowed in.
How do they do leining?

Offline Chapshnell

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #133 on: April 12, 2020, 07:58:21 PM »
...

Offline KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #134 on: April 12, 2020, 07:58:29 PM »
How do they do leining?
The place I know of, everyone is Oleh from where they are standing, so if your at seat #45 you stay there and say the bracha from there.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #135 on: April 12, 2020, 08:00:25 PM »
...

Proves point that till now it was not illegal in NY.  Even now I doubt it'll stand in court. It possibly will, but will require some rigorous defending.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #136 on: April 12, 2020, 08:04:37 PM »
are you seriously saying this?


Why are people so easily dismissive of people's lives, if it isn't their own?
Can anyone who believes it is right to daven with a minyan show me any mekor that one must in this situation?
Because seeing the death toll in real life I can't believe one exists.
Why dont you walk up the block from your house and ask the man in the big house where you daven maariv on motzei shabbos these questions. Then walk another block and ask the Rabbi there the same questions. Then cross the street and ask the other rabbi the same. And then go around the corner where you daven all your other tefillos and as the rabbi too!!!
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #137 on: April 12, 2020, 08:05:20 PM »
The place I know of, everyone is Oleh from where they are standing, so if your at seat #45 you stay there and say the bracha from there.
How can one be Oleh without actually reading from the sefer torah??

Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #138 on: April 12, 2020, 08:05:38 PM »
1) My Shul has been closed for a month.

2) I have not joined outdoor Minyanim since then.

3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
This is something that is special to us.
We have Daas Torah to guide us through everything in life.

Offline chevron

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #139 on: April 12, 2020, 08:06:49 PM »
This is the quote:

Attorney General William Barr "is monitoring (government) regulation of religious services," said Justice Department spokeswoman Kerri Kupec on Twitter late Saturday. "While social distancing policies are appropriate during this emergency, they must be applied evenhandedly (and) not single out religious orgs."

If they are equally applied to all gatherings then they can include religious ones. If they are qually applied to all gatherings except food and the like that will also be able to include religious ones. Stop with the ignorant interpretations of the constitution.Separation fo church and state is not anywhere in the constitution.

Sorry didn't mean that in that sense, the right to practice religion without government encroachment is in the constitution.

Separation of church and state" is paraphrased from Thomas Jefferson and used by others in expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I have a very good understanding of the Constitution thank you very much