Poll

Is your shul secretly open right now?

Shul is closed and locked NYC
45 (40.9%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning NYC
6 (5.5%)
Shul is officially not closed NYC
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked OOT
26 (23.6%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning OOT
2 (1.8%)
Shul is officially not closed OOT
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked Lakewood
31 (28.2%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning Lakewood
0 (0%)
Shul is officially not closed Lakewood
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 110

Author Topic: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?  (Read 7578 times)

Online KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #135 on: April 12, 2020, 08:00:25 PM »
...

Proves point that till now it was not illegal in NY.  Even now I doubt it'll stand in court. It possibly will, but will require some rigorous defending.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #136 on: April 12, 2020, 08:04:37 PM »
are you seriously saying this?


Why are people so easily dismissive of people's lives, if it isn't their own?
Can anyone who believes it is right to daven with a minyan show me any mekor that one must in this situation?
Because seeing the death toll in real life I can't believe one exists.
Why dont you walk up the block from your house and ask the man in the big house where you daven maariv on motzei shabbos these questions. Then walk another block and ask the Rabbi there the same questions. Then cross the street and ask the other rabbi the same. And then go around the corner where you daven all your other tefillos and as the rabbi too!!!
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #137 on: April 12, 2020, 08:05:20 PM »
The place I know of, everyone is Oleh from where they are standing, so if your at seat #45 you stay there and say the bracha from there.
How can one be Oleh without actually reading from the sefer torah??

Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #138 on: April 12, 2020, 08:05:38 PM »
1) My Shul has been closed for a month.

2) I have not joined outdoor Minyanim since then.

3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
This is something that is special to us.
We have Daas Torah to guide us through everything in life.

Offline chevron

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #139 on: April 12, 2020, 08:06:49 PM »
This is the quote:

Attorney General William Barr "is monitoring (government) regulation of religious services," said Justice Department spokeswoman Kerri Kupec on Twitter late Saturday. "While social distancing policies are appropriate during this emergency, they must be applied evenhandedly (and) not single out religious orgs."

If they are equally applied to all gatherings then they can include religious ones. If they are qually applied to all gatherings except food and the like that will also be able to include religious ones. Stop with the ignorant interpretations of the constitution.Separation fo church and state is not anywhere in the constitution.

Sorry didn't mean that in that sense, the right to practice religion without government encroachment is in the constitution.

Separation of church and state" is paraphrased from Thomas Jefferson and used by others in expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I have a very good understanding of the Constitution thank you very much

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #140 on: April 12, 2020, 08:08:44 PM »
1) My Shul has been closed for a month.

2) I have not joined outdoor Minyanim since then.

3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
This is something that is special to us.
We have Daas Torah to guide us through everything in life.
So those that havent closed are following Daas Torah and Ailu V'Ailu? Or maybe, just maybe the rabbonim that stayed open have a certain negias and didnt ask because they know better.
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Offline S209

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #141 on: April 12, 2020, 08:11:29 PM »
1) My Shul has been closed for a month.

2) I have not joined outdoor Minyanim since then.

3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
This is something that is special to us.
We have Daas Torah to guide us through everything in life.
Straw man alert
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #142 on: April 12, 2020, 08:12:23 PM »
This was the zmanim chart for yom tov that was distributed by the person in charge of doing so for my shul. He makes it abundently clear that everyone is supposed to daven at home. He left off the Shul name from the masthead to make that clear as the shul name is always on the masthead...and he goes and davens with the Rov over Yom Tov and Shabbos.

What message do I, a layman, take from that? I am just utterly befuddled by what I am supposed to be doing! (Hint: I am not, but some poor shmigegi in shul probably is.)
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Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #143 on: April 12, 2020, 08:12:38 PM »
So those that havent closed are following Daas Torah and Ailu V'Ailu?
All the Daas Torah that I've seen or heard, especially the last 2 weeks, has been unanimous.

Or maybe, just maybe the rabbonim that stayed open have a certain negias and didnt ask because they know better.
Very likely or they are a Chossid Shota. I have yet to see a clear Psak to stay open.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #144 on: April 12, 2020, 08:12:58 PM »
1) My Shul has been closed for a month.

2) I have not joined outdoor Minyanim since then.

3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
This is something that is special to us.
We have Daas Torah to guide us through everything in life.
I agree on #3 but your Daas Torah is not another's Daas Torah.

As jews need to understand more then ever that prospecting another's religion is important.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #145 on: April 12, 2020, 08:13:43 PM »
What message do I, a layman, take from that?
That they are open as usual and should be reported.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #146 on: April 12, 2020, 08:17:23 PM »
Proves point that till now it was not illegal in NY.  Even now I doubt it'll stand in court. It possibly will, but will require some rigorous defending.
I assure you that they will not even be granted a stay.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #147 on: April 12, 2020, 08:21:01 PM »
I assure you that they will not even be granted a stay.
That I agree with, there most likely will not be a Judge that will grant a stay during this outbreak, after the outbreak they will feel more comfortable doing so, understandably.

Sadly many courts in the US are afraid of political attacks and public opinion over following the actual letter of the law. Just look at how many anti trump cases have been overturned or stayed by the supreme court.

Always praying for delayed baggage.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #148 on: April 12, 2020, 08:25:24 PM »
That I agree with, there most likely will not be a Judge that will grant a stay during this outbreak, after the outbreak they will feel more comfortable doing so, understandably.

Sadly many courts in the US are afraid of political attacks and public opinion over following the actual letter of the law. Just look at how many anti trump cases have been overturned or stayed by the supreme court.
No matter which court would adjudicate it the rule would be upheld so long as it is evenly applied to all similar gatherings. A grocery is not similar.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #149 on: April 12, 2020, 08:31:02 PM »
That they are open as usual and should be reported.
Ummm, no. They are open to whomever the rabbi invites. Yet everyone was told to daven at home.

Forget abut the legalities.

Where do I take this schizoid behavior? How can I look my Rav in the eyes after this is all said and done and have any respect for him? I am asking a very serious question. I am totally at a loss at how I as a regular mispallel can go back there after this is all over.
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