Poll

Is your shul secretly open right now?

Shul is closed and locked NYC
45 (40.9%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning NYC
6 (5.5%)
Shul is officially not closed NYC
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked OOT
26 (23.6%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning OOT
2 (1.8%)
Shul is officially not closed OOT
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked Lakewood
31 (28.2%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning Lakewood
0 (0%)
Shul is officially not closed Lakewood
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 110

Author Topic: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?  (Read 14707 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #140 on: April 12, 2020, 08:08:44 PM »
1) My Shul has been closed for a month.

2) I have not joined outdoor Minyanim since then.

3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
This is something that is special to us.
We have Daas Torah to guide us through everything in life.
So those that havent closed are following Daas Torah and Ailu V'Ailu? Or maybe, just maybe the rabbonim that stayed open have a certain negias and didnt ask because they know better.
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Offline S209

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #141 on: April 12, 2020, 08:11:29 PM »
1) My Shul has been closed for a month.

2) I have not joined outdoor Minyanim since then.

3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
This is something that is special to us.
We have Daas Torah to guide us through everything in life.
Straw man alert
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #142 on: April 12, 2020, 08:12:23 PM »
This was the zmanim chart for yom tov that was distributed by the person in charge of doing so for my shul. He makes it abundently clear that everyone is supposed to daven at home. He left off the Shul name from the masthead to make that clear as the shul name is always on the masthead...and he goes and davens with the Rov over Yom Tov and Shabbos.

What message do I, a layman, take from that? I am just utterly befuddled by what I am supposed to be doing! (Hint: I am not, but some poor shmigegi in shul probably is.)
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Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #143 on: April 12, 2020, 08:12:38 PM »
So those that havent closed are following Daas Torah and Ailu V'Ailu?
All the Daas Torah that I've seen or heard, especially the last 2 weeks, has been unanimous.

Or maybe, just maybe the rabbonim that stayed open have a certain negias and didnt ask because they know better.
Very likely or they are a Chossid Shota. I have yet to see a clear Psak to stay open.

Offline KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #144 on: April 12, 2020, 08:12:58 PM »
1) My Shul has been closed for a month.

2) I have not joined outdoor Minyanim since then.

3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
This is something that is special to us.
We have Daas Torah to guide us through everything in life.
I agree on #3 but your Daas Torah is not another's Daas Torah.

As jews need to understand more then ever that prospecting another's religion is important.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #145 on: April 12, 2020, 08:13:43 PM »
What message do I, a layman, take from that?
That they are open as usual and should be reported.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #146 on: April 12, 2020, 08:17:23 PM »
Proves point that till now it was not illegal in NY.  Even now I doubt it'll stand in court. It possibly will, but will require some rigorous defending.
I assure you that they will not even be granted a stay.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #147 on: April 12, 2020, 08:21:01 PM »
I assure you that they will not even be granted a stay.
That I agree with, there most likely will not be a Judge that will grant a stay during this outbreak, after the outbreak they will feel more comfortable doing so, understandably.

Sadly many courts in the US are afraid of political attacks and public opinion over following the actual letter of the law. Just look at how many anti trump cases have been overturned or stayed by the supreme court.

Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #148 on: April 12, 2020, 08:25:24 PM »
That I agree with, there most likely will not be a Judge that will grant a stay during this outbreak, after the outbreak they will feel more comfortable doing so, understandably.

Sadly many courts in the US are afraid of political attacks and public opinion over following the actual letter of the law. Just look at how many anti trump cases have been overturned or stayed by the supreme court.
No matter which court would adjudicate it the rule would be upheld so long as it is evenly applied to all similar gatherings. A grocery is not similar.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #149 on: April 12, 2020, 08:31:02 PM »
That they are open as usual and should be reported.
Ummm, no. They are open to whomever the rabbi invites. Yet everyone was told to daven at home.

Forget abut the legalities.

Where do I take this schizoid behavior? How can I look my Rav in the eyes after this is all said and done and have any respect for him? I am asking a very serious question. I am totally at a loss at how I as a regular mispallel can go back there after this is all over.
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Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #150 on: April 12, 2020, 08:39:32 PM »
Ummm, no. They are open to whomever the rabbi invites. Yet everyone was told to daven at home.

Forget abut the legalities.

Where do I take this schizoid behavior? How can I look my Rav in the eyes after this is all said and done and have any respect for him? I am asking a very serious question. I am totally at a loss at how I as a regular mispallel can go back there after this is all over.

I hear you and do not envy your question at all.

Maybe you can call the Rav and ask him point blank? Obviously he's a Nogeia B'davor but perhaps he'll have something to say that will give you clarity either way, either something to understand him and then you'd be ok with continuing to Daven in that Shul and respect him or he will make your decision to find a new Shul easier...

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #151 on: April 12, 2020, 08:41:50 PM »
I hear you and do not envy your question at all.

Maybe you can call the Rav and ask him point blank? Obviously he's a Nogeia B'davor but perhaps he'll have something to say that will give you clarity - either way, either understanding him and continuing to Daven in that Shul and respect him or make your decision to find a new Shul easier...
His answer will invariably be one of the following:

1. I never told you to stay home.
2. The shul is open as long as we can safely daven.
3. The shul is mine and I can do with it as I please.
4. If you dont like it I cant stop you from going elsewhere.

If finding a new shul was so easy I would have found one already.
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Online CountValentine

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #152 on: April 12, 2020, 09:01:05 PM »
I feel like you've had this conversation before...
...yes but I never received an answer. I wonder why, NOT!  :)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #153 on: April 12, 2020, 09:06:23 PM »
3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
I guess I just received my answer.
Probably best to ban me from this thread, delete it or lock it.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #154 on: April 12, 2020, 09:06:34 PM »
...yes but I never received an answer. I wonder why, NOT!  :)
Read "Dina Malchuta Dina" on wikipedia.

Didn't read it to see if I agree with all but it should give you a basic understanding of the position of many jews.

Now, you have received the answer you were seeking.

Nothing to Hide but just takes some time to write a proper answer.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #155 on: April 12, 2020, 09:11:45 PM »
I guess I just received my answer.
Probably best to ban me from this thread, delete it or lock it.
Another option would have been for you to not do everything @Yehuda57 regularly complains about. There were plenty of churches which were just as stupid as these people.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #156 on: April 12, 2020, 09:13:24 PM »
Read "Dina Malchuta Dina" on wikipedia.

Didn't read it to see if I agree with all but it should give you a basic understanding of the position of many jews.

Now, you have received the answer you were seeking.

Nothing to Hide but just takes some time to write a proper answer.
My answer would be to have @JMHO read it.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #157 on: April 12, 2020, 09:23:48 PM »
My answer would be to have @JMHO read it.
I did. This is still Daas Torah's decision to make, not ours.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #158 on: April 12, 2020, 09:28:52 PM »
I did. This is still Daas Torah's decision to make, not ours.
So you don't agree with "the law of the land"?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline yeshivabucher

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #159 on: April 12, 2020, 09:32:18 PM »
So you don't agree with "the law of the land"?
not per say but not all circumstances qualify to follow it