Poll

Is your shul secretly open right now?

Shul is closed and locked NYC
45 (40.9%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning NYC
6 (5.5%)
Shul is officially not closed NYC
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked OOT
26 (23.6%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning OOT
2 (1.8%)
Shul is officially not closed OOT
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked Lakewood
31 (28.2%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning Lakewood
0 (0%)
Shul is officially not closed Lakewood
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 110

Author Topic: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?  (Read 7822 times)

Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #150 on: April 12, 2020, 08:39:32 PM »
Ummm, no. They are open to whomever the rabbi invites. Yet everyone was told to daven at home.

Forget abut the legalities.

Where do I take this schizoid behavior? How can I look my Rav in the eyes after this is all said and done and have any respect for him? I am asking a very serious question. I am totally at a loss at how I as a regular mispallel can go back there after this is all over.

I hear you and do not envy your question at all.

Maybe you can call the Rav and ask him point blank? Obviously he's a Nogeia B'davor but perhaps he'll have something to say that will give you clarity either way, either something to understand him and then you'd be ok with continuing to Daven in that Shul and respect him or he will make your decision to find a new Shul easier...

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #151 on: April 12, 2020, 08:41:50 PM »
I hear you and do not envy your question at all.

Maybe you can call the Rav and ask him point blank? Obviously he's a Nogeia B'davor but perhaps he'll have something to say that will give you clarity - either way, either understanding him and continuing to Daven in that Shul and respect him or make your decision to find a new Shul easier...
His answer will invariably be one of the following:

1. I never told you to stay home.
2. The shul is open as long as we can safely daven.
3. The shul is mine and I can do with it as I please.
4. If you dont like it I cant stop you from going elsewhere.

If finding a new shul was so easy I would have found one already.
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #152 on: April 12, 2020, 09:01:05 PM »
I feel like you've had this conversation before...
...yes but I never received an answer. I wonder why, NOT!  :)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #153 on: April 12, 2020, 09:06:23 PM »
3) A decision to close a Shul is made by Daas Torah only, period.
Not because we think it's the right thing to do it logically, emotionally, or even legally.
I guess I just received my answer.
Probably best to ban me from this thread, delete it or lock it.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #154 on: April 12, 2020, 09:06:34 PM »
...yes but I never received an answer. I wonder why, NOT!  :)
Read "Dina Malchuta Dina" on wikipedia.

Didn't read it to see if I agree with all but it should give you a basic understanding of the position of many jews.

Now, you have received the answer you were seeking.

Nothing to Hide but just takes some time to write a proper answer.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #155 on: April 12, 2020, 09:11:45 PM »
I guess I just received my answer.
Probably best to ban me from this thread, delete it or lock it.
Another option would have been for you to not do everything @Yehuda57 regularly complains about. There were plenty of churches which were just as stupid as these people.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #156 on: April 12, 2020, 09:13:24 PM »
Read "Dina Malchuta Dina" on wikipedia.

Didn't read it to see if I agree with all but it should give you a basic understanding of the position of many jews.

Now, you have received the answer you were seeking.

Nothing to Hide but just takes some time to write a proper answer.
My answer would be to have @JMHO read it.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline JMHO

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #157 on: April 12, 2020, 09:23:48 PM »
My answer would be to have @JMHO read it.
I did. This is still Daas Torah's decision to make, not ours.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #158 on: April 12, 2020, 09:28:52 PM »
I did. This is still Daas Torah's decision to make, not ours.
So you don't agree with "the law of the land"?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline yeshivabucher

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #159 on: April 12, 2020, 09:32:18 PM »
So you don't agree with "the law of the land"?
not per say but not all circumstances qualify to follow it

Offline Dan

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #160 on: April 12, 2020, 09:33:10 PM »
So you don't agree with "the law of the land"?
It generally applies, but Rabbis would have final say.
In other words, just because communist Russia banned Judaism, doesn't mean Jews gave up their Judaism there.

The Torah specially says that life and death situations overrule nearly every commandment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sacrifice_in_Jewish_law#Three_exceptional_sins), so closing shuls is a no-brainer for nearly every Rabbis, whether the government requires it or not.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline KSMH

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #161 on: April 12, 2020, 09:37:33 PM »
Currently in the state of NJ there is no legal obligation to close synagogues.

This is based on reading all executive orders 103-125.

Even if governor Murphy would ban such gatherings, based on the other permitted continued gatherings his order would be deemed illegal [as others noted, AG bar stating].

I did not have a chance to read all NY stuff [don't know if I will]

Tommorow I'll try writing up on and quoting all exutive orders in NJ that can relate to religion or synagogues.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 10:14:30 PM by KSMH »
Always praying for delayed baggage.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #162 on: April 12, 2020, 09:39:19 PM »
not per say but not all circumstances qualify to follow it
It generally applies, but Rabbis would have final say.
In other words, just because communist Russia banned Judaism, doesn't mean Jews gave up their Judaism there.

The Torah specially says that life and death situations overrule nearly every commandment, so closing shuls is a no-brainer for nearly every Rabbis, whether the government requires it or not.
Sorry guys but this is black and white. The laws of our country come first or they don't. Saying "not per say" or "it generally applies" means our laws do not come first.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Dan

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #163 on: April 12, 2020, 09:39:41 PM »
Currently in the state of NJ there is no legal obligation to close synagogues.

This is based on reading all exutive orders 103-125.

Even if governor Murphy would ban such gatherings, based on the other permitted continued gatherings his order would be deemed illegal [as others noted, AG bar stating].

I did not have a chance to read all NY stuff [don't know if I will]

Tommorow I'll try writing up on and quoting all exutive orders in NJ that can relate to religion or synagogues.


Who cares?
Why rely on the gov't to make arbitrary decisions?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #164 on: April 12, 2020, 09:40:22 PM »
Sorry guys but this is black and white. The laws of our country come first or they don't. Saying "not per say" or "it generally applies" means our laws do not come first.
In other words, just because communist Russia banned Judaism, doesn't mean Jews gave up their Judaism there.
How is that black and white? Should Judaism close down because the government said it should?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.