Poll

Is your shul secretly open right now?

Shul is closed and locked NYC
45 (40.9%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning NYC
6 (5.5%)
Shul is officially not closed NYC
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked OOT
26 (23.6%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning OOT
2 (1.8%)
Shul is officially not closed OOT
0 (0%)
Shul is closed and locked Lakewood
31 (28.2%)
Shul is "closed" but secretly functioning Lakewood
0 (0%)
Shul is officially not closed Lakewood
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 110

Author Topic: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?  (Read 8353 times)

Online yelped

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #165 on: April 12, 2020, 09:40:39 PM »
Currently in the state of NJ there is no legal obligation to close synagogues.

This is based on reading all exutive orders 103-125.

Even if governor Murphy would ban such gatherings, based on the other permitted continued gatherings his order would be deemed illegal [as others noted, AG bar stating].

I did not have a chance to read all NY stuff [don't know if I will]

Tommorow I'll try writing up on and quoting all exutive orders in NJ that can relate to religion or synagogues.
Stop wasting your time with irrelevant studies. Minyanim should not take place in shuls because it's Assur Al pi toirah. Period. We don't the government to tell us that we have to value life over almost anything. If you don't recognize that, maybe you should go back to studying the basics.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #166 on: April 12, 2020, 09:41:45 PM »
@Dan, where is my eye bleach post?

It's threads like these that will make me need to check the box for "have you ever contemplated or committed acts of self harm" for returning to this forum.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #167 on: April 12, 2020, 09:42:01 PM »
Stop wasting your time with irrelevant studies. Minyanim should not take place in shuls because it's Assur Al pi toirah. Period.
Not everyone seems to agree with that statement apparently.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #168 on: April 12, 2020, 09:43:05 PM »
@Dan, where is my eye bleach post?

It's threads like these that will make me need to check the box for "have you ever contemplated or committed acts of self harm" for returning to this forum.
The answer to all 20 questions is yes...you will get there eventually... :D
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Online yelped

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #169 on: April 12, 2020, 09:43:10 PM »
Not everyone seems to agree with that statement apparently.
Read my edit. I still didn't finish the last sentence because some would get offended and some would misunderstand me.

Offline Dan

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #170 on: April 12, 2020, 09:44:24 PM »
Stop wasting your time with irrelevant studies. Minyanim should not take place in shuls because it's Assur Al pi toirah. Period. We don't the government to tell us that we have to value life over almost anything. If you don't recognize that, maybe you should go back to studying the basics.
Sadly it seems like the basics have never been taught for some. They don't even know why valuing life should come before other mitzvahs.
Eye-opening really.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #171 on: April 12, 2020, 09:49:27 PM »
Sadly it seems like the basics have never been taught for some. They don't even know why valuing life should come before other mitzvahs.
Eye-opening really.
Oy, oy, oy. I am reminded of a story of the Baal Shem Tov. Let me see if I could find a link to it somewhere, so I don't quote it from memory and possibly misquote it.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #172 on: April 12, 2020, 09:50:01 PM »
How is that black and white? Should Judaism close down because the government said it should?
You abide by our laws. If you don't like the decision then you challenge it in court.
This isn't about Judaism. It is about any religion violating the laws of our country in the name of their religion.
So you want everyone to follow their religion and violate our constitution when they clash? Talk about a can of worms.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #173 on: April 12, 2020, 09:51:05 PM »
Sorry guys but this is black and white. The laws of our country come first or they don't. Saying "not per say" or "it generally applies" means our laws do not come first.
You do realize that for all of our history we've been persecuted by our ruling governments, right?

Even America, which has been one of our most gracious and generous hosts in history has had cities flirt with banning foundational parts of our religion.

If practicing Catholicism was banned by law, which would you pick?
Seems far fetched to you, but that's literally our entire history.

It's about the furthest thing from black and white there could be.
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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #174 on: April 12, 2020, 09:51:43 PM »


Who cares?
Why rely on the gov't to make arbitrary decisions?

There was some discussion upthread regarding legality of having shuls open.

I agree, don't rely on government.


Stop wasting your time with irrelevant studies. Minyanim should not take place in shuls because it's Assur Al pi toirah. Period. We don't the government to tell us that we have to value life over almost anything. If you don't recognize that, maybe you should go back to studying the basics.

That's your opinion, there are some that feel otherwise. I'm not one of the "some"  but I learned in life to respect others decisions regardless if I understand it or not.  While for the time being I don't agree  with their position I do get thier perspective.

You have a right to stay home and "protect yourself", others have a right to do as they wish if they are within the law. The government has a right to change the laws if they deem so is necessary.

Always praying for delayed baggage.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #175 on: April 12, 2020, 09:52:31 PM »
Sadly it seems like the basics have never been taught for some. They don't even know why valuing life should come before other mitzvahs.
Eye-opening really.
I think they know that basic information. Because it is the government they are inherently suspicious and 1) Dont believe its life threatening (that is where they are uninformed) or 2) Think that the government doesn't know what is best (which again is them being misinformed)
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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #176 on: April 12, 2020, 09:52:52 PM »
It generally applies, but Rabbis would have final say.
In other words, just because communist Russia banned Judaism, doesn't mean Jews gave up their Judaism there.

The Torah specially says that life and death situations overrule nearly every commandment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sacrifice_in_Jewish_law#Three_exceptional_sins), so closing shuls is a no-brainer for nearly every Rabbis, whether the government requires it or not.
The only issue is that unfortunately  shutting down every shul has not helped saved any lives at all. even the places that shut down very early has the same numbers like any where else, hashem yishmor! queens county has more cases than Brooklyn county w/o any shuls or the sort open. They know they can not stop this through any actions ( look at the princess cruise ship)They are attempting to slow it down. And with the subways running the restaurants,banks, supermarkets, pharmacies, hardware stores etc etc etc all open, they are doing a horrible job at it. We only have the eibersther to rely on. And being fully mevatel all public tefillos of any sort, even with social distancing and following all rules, is not necessarily fully agreed on by all rabbbanim. You are over simplifying this situation! Most of the very chashuve rabbanim in the vchassidishe velt have some sort of operational minyan and they are all very well versed in the Halachos and severity of pikuach nefesh.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #177 on: April 12, 2020, 09:56:26 PM »
You do realize that for all of our history we've been persecuted by our ruling governments, right?

Even America, which has been one of our most gracious and generous hosts in history has had cities flirt with banning foundational parts of our religion.

If practicing Catholicism was banned by law, which would you pick?
Seems far fetched to you, but that's literally our entire history.

It's about the furthest thing from black and white there could be.
Yes our government is not perfect. Having everyone follow the laws of their religion is the definition of insanity. How many different sets of laws would we have in this country?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #178 on: April 12, 2020, 10:00:18 PM »
Yes our government is not perfect. Having everyone follow the laws of their religion is the definition of insanity. How many different sets of laws would we have in this country?
This topic deserves a new thread IMHO.

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Re: Is your Shul Secretly Open Right Now?
« Reply #179 on: April 12, 2020, 10:00:49 PM »
Currently in the state of NJ there is no legal obligation to close synagogues.

This is based on reading all exutive orders 103-125.

Even if governor Murphy would ban such gatherings, based on the other permitted continued gatherings his order would be deemed illegal [as others noted, AG bar stating].

I did not have a chance to read all NY stuff [don't know if I will]

Tommorow I'll try writing up on and quoting all exutive orders in NJ that can relate to religion or synagogues.
They probably are excluded under executive order 107 par.2 (7) leaving the home for an educational, religious, or political reason but if that entire item would be removed or if religious reasons had not been mentioned in the first place that would be constitutional. For those who are claiming letter of law of the land as their guide they should go to shul.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.