Author Topic: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim  (Read 17833 times)

Offline yochiek93

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2020, 01:44:03 AM »
Itís a Letter from Rav Moshe Sternbuch from the eida that says you can make a bracha for an aliya even if youíre not standing by the sefer torah
and how does the one getting the Aliya read with the Baal koreh?
If they are so machmir with a minyan shouldn't they be machmir on that too

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2020, 01:49:50 AM »
and how does the one getting the Aliya read with the Baal koreh?
If they are so machmir with a minyan shouldn't they be machmir on that too
He doesnít. Pure שומע כעונה. Again Iím talking about the halachic part not the hashkafa etc...

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2020, 02:29:53 AM »
I cannot speak for all of you NYers and NJians. But here in EY (outside of Bnei Beraq and Jerusalem) our Shuls have been closed long before yours. Purim was pretty much the last day our shul was fully open, the shabbos after we were limited to 100 people and then Sunday the shuls shut for good.

Since then there have been hundreds of porch minyanim, dozens in my city. We lein from the Torah all the rabonim participate in the minyanim I personally live in the Haifa region. We have under 200 people sick and in the hospital, and to my knowledge ZERO are from the Frum community. There are minyanim on the streets (with a massive amount of social distancing) and there are minyanim on porches.

IMHO in NY and NJ IF the minyan is being held within the guidelines there is no reason not to answer amen.

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2020, 02:37:05 AM »
I cannot speak for all of you NYers and NJians. But here in EY (outside of Bnei Beraq and Jerusalem) our Shuls have been closed long before yours. Purim was pretty much the last day our shul was fully open, the shabbos after we were limited to 100 people and then Sunday the shuls shut for good.

Since then there have been hundreds of porch minyanim, dozens in my city. We lein from the Torah all the rabonim participate in the minyanim I personally live in the Haifa region. We have under 200 people sick and in the hospital, and to my knowledge ZERO are from the Frum community. There are minyanim on the streets (with a massive amount of social distancing) and there are minyanim on porches.

IMHO in NY and NJ IF the minyan is being held within the guidelines there is no reason not to answer amen.
The poskim in America said no minyanim period. Why do we have the right to argue with them? If your specific rav allows you to do porch minyanim then by all means go ahead. But the big poskim in America have spoken. If we donít listen to them itís gonna be real dangerous in the future with our chinuch when weíll try to get the next generation to have kavod and yiras chachomim.

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2020, 02:49:25 AM »
The poskim in America said no minyanim period. Why do we have the right to argue with them? If your specific rav allows you to do porch minyanim then by all means go ahead. But the big poskim in America have spoken. If we donít listen to them itís gonna be real dangerous in the future with our chinuch when weíll try to get the next generation to have kavod and yiras chachomim.

Are these porch minyanim taking place without rabonim also (in Brooklyn)?

Offline Vesko

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2020, 03:27:31 AM »
My personal take:
In Wuhan, Spain, Italy, and England, there were set times that people went on their porches to sing, serenade each other, yell to each other, applaud medical workers, ect. Everyone in the world thought it was wonderful, and there were laudatory headlines and videos everywhere. Suddenly, when people are doing the same thing to sing and praise Hashem, they're evil. It feels to me like the story with the yid on the train in the 1950s, that someone came over to him and berated him for the chilul Hashem he was causing by dressing in the old world style long coat, hat, and beard. The person looked at the yeller blankly and said "I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm Amish, and this is how we preserve our traditions. I'm sorry if it offends you." The yeller apologized profusely, and said how wonderful he thought it was that he was preserving the ways of his ancestors and how he should be proud of it... The "Amish" guy said to him "For the Amish it's wonderful and praiseworthy, but for a yid it's a chilul Hashem"?

In addition, many non essential businesses are still open, and I don't see people getting emotional about people attending. I haven't seen a single business where appropriate social distancing measures were maintained. Not a single one. Not banks, not pharmacies, not supermarkets... Nothing. In fact, it's nearly impossible for appropriate non contagion measures to be maintained in these settings. Yet I don't see anyone getting emotional about them. I have seen minyanim where appropriate distances were maintained. An outdoor minyan setting is significantly more feasible to maintain a safe environment than a store, being as not everyone needs to be in the same aisles getting the same items by necessity, it's possible to be over a much larger area, and people are not touching the same surfaces. Yet all these pseudo epidemiologists that speak 3 words of Yiddish and know how to yell in a WhatsApp video are convinced that all these people that ch'v answer amen yehei shmei rabbah are rotzchim.

If we were taking social distancing as seriously as these people feel we should, every store should be closed. Yes, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Forget about the liquor stores and other ridiculous stores that are legally allowed to remain open (I haven't seen a single WhatsApp video ranting about those-in fact, it seems that the august darshanim like to utilize them...)-every food store and pharmacy should be closed too. They can all be converted to deliver only, and organizations can be mobilized and arranged to take orders, pack them, and deliver them. Kreindy won't get the brand mayonnaise she likes, and Berel won't get his favorite rack of ribs? They'll survive on potatoes and matzah. I'm well aware that people need emergency medications ect... They can all be delivered. These stores are infinitely more dangerous than minyanim, based on the apparent impossibility to operate them in a safe mannerism. If every guy that is ranting about people davening with a minyan would volunteer to help take orders and deliver, this would be entirely doable. This is a warzone we're talking about, not peacetime. Nobody should be talking about how this isn't feasible because their kids get cranky if they don't have fresh milk and eggs and their favorite brand cereal every 2 days.

Different people seem to have different priorities. I think the same people that rant about the chilul Hashem of minyanim on airplanes, the chilul Hashem of men not sitting next to women, and the chilul Hashem of the Yidden in the 1950s that walked around with a yarmulke and peyos and beard are ranting about this. It depends which religion you subscribe to.

This is my personal take.

However, I am wrong. That is because I asked my posek, one of the gedolim in America, (and I heard the same from someone else who personally asked another very choshuve posek that has been consulted about life and death questions for decades), and he said not to participate in a such a minyan, even if it is being operated on a mannerism that most doctors would consider 100% safe. He did not explain why.

Every person has to have a Rav that they listen to אפילו אם אמר על שמאל ימין ועל ימין שמאל, and this is what my Rav said. Therefore, I am 100% wrong, and all my logic otherwise is worthless.

I must admit that it's very difficult for me. There is a minyan outside my house that consists of a few different families, each on their own individual property in their single family homes, well more than all the recommended distances apart. I literally just have to walk onto my front porch to be part of the minyan, and I hear them davening. Listening to a ruling that is nearly a chok to me is personally very difficult. However, that is the halacha, and I believe that a person who listens to their Rav no matter what does not regret it, and that is what will being the geulah more than any minyan.

 כשם שמקבלים שכר על הדרישה, כך מקבלים שכר על הפרישה.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2020, 06:15:27 AM »
They said no fires this year, so people sold the ten pieces of bread to a goy instead, and that's how CV got the wooden spoon..
No fires so I tried to flush the spoon in the toilet but it just floats.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Ergel

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2020, 07:21:26 AM »
and how does the one getting the Aliya read with the Baal koreh?
If they are so machmir with a minyan shouldn't they be machmir on that too
So now you know more than Rav Shternbuch? Seriously. It's a halacha in Shulchan Aruch that we give a suma an aliyah. He reads along with the baal koreh (in this situation the oleh would do the same, just reading from his chumash along with the baal koreh).

@Something Fishy Regarding your question whether or not to answer Amen - Rav Hershel Schachter quoted from somewhere - maybe it was a Maharil Diskin? - that a Baal Tokea once was told by the doctors that it was a sakana for him to blow shofar. He went ahead b"mesirus nefesh" and blew shofar for the tzibur anyways. They asked after yuntif whether he did the right thing and were answered that no one was yotzei shofar that year - it was a mitzvah habaah b'aveirah. Rav Schachter said it's probably the same thing here.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline israshot

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2020, 07:27:30 AM »
So now you know more than Rav Shternbuch? Seriously. It's a halacha in Shulchan Aruch that we give a suma an aliyah. He reads along with the baal koreh (in this situation the oleh would do the same, just reading from his chumash along with the baal koreh).

@Something Fishy Regarding your question whether or not to answer Amen - Rav Hershel Schachter quoted from somewhere - maybe it was a Maharil Diskin? - that a Baal Tokea once was told by the doctors that it was a sakana for him to blow shofar. He went ahead b"mesirus nefesh" and blew shofar for the tzibur anyways. They asked after yuntif whether he did the right thing and were answered that no one was yotzei shofar that year - it was a mitzvah habaah b'aveirah. Rav Schachter said it's probably the same thing here.

Another opinion here. His opinion is that we can't compare it to סומא and they cannot call up people. Only the baal koreh reads everything at once with a ברכה before and after.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2020, 07:30:03 AM »
Another opinion here. His opinion is that we can't compare it to סומא and they cannot call up people. Only the baal koreh reads everything at once with a ברכה before and after.
I'm not saying it's the only opinion. (And, honestly, to me, the psak you are quoting makes more sense). But to say "shouldn't they be machmir on that too" is just stupid.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline israshot

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2020, 07:51:54 AM »
I hope no one will make Mesirus Nefesh to take out the Torah in this rain today in NY/NJ area...
On the other hand I expect the same baalei Mesirus Nefesh to be outside for the whole davening...

Another interesting point is that women are apperently freely invited to the Minyanim without any mechitza in place...

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2020, 09:25:07 AM »
I hope no one will make Mesirus Nefesh to take out the Torah in this rain today in NY/NJ area...
On the other hand I expect the same baalei Mesirus Nefesh to be outside for the whole davening...

Another interesting point is that women are apperently freely invited to the Minyanim without any mechitza in place...

Should have known, the only way to shut down minyanim would be to get women involved.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2020, 10:10:28 AM »
He doesnít. Pure שומע כעונה.
So now you know more than Rav Shternbuch? Seriously. It's a halacha in Shulchan Aruch that we give a suma an aliyah. He reads along with the baal koreh (in this situation the oleh would do the same, just reading from his chumash along with the baal koreh).
שומע כעונה לא סגי בקריאת התורה, דמדינא צריך העולה לקרות מתוך הכתב ממש כמבואר להדיא בשו׳׳ע, ואינו דומה לסומא וע׳׳ה שמיקל הרמ׳׳א הואיל וכבר נהגו, דשם הוא משום דרכי שלום, משא׳׳ כ בזה ואין כאן מנהגא, ועוד דהכא אינו עולה כלל

With that said, I would like to see the psak of Rav Moshe Sternbuch, If someone can post it please.

Offline Shmobaum

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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2020, 10:19:07 AM »

Offline AsherO

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2020, 10:20:30 AM »
makes a מזונות on pretzels during Pesach, will you answer Amen?

Common misnomer. Pesach pretzels are Shehakol! 😝

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2020, 10:21:37 AM »
Yup, I see it there, very mechudesh, ask your Ruv if he agrees with that.
Heís only being lenient because of the shaas hadchak. But heís one of the greatest poskim in the world.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2020, 10:21:55 AM »
Should have known, the only way to shut down minyanim would be to get women involved.

Easier to get a DDF thread locked than to get a minyan in NYC shut down.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2020, 10:22:58 AM »
Can I ask a question about laws?  :)

Only Chaim Masochistowitz can ask such questions

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2020, 10:28:44 AM »
Heís only being lenient because of the shaas hadchak. But heís one of the greatest poskim in the world.
I know his status well, quite suitable.