Author Topic: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim  (Read 12424 times)

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 22166
  • Total likes: 686
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2020, 10:20:30 AM »
makes a מזונות on pretzels during Pesach, will you answer Amen?

Common misnomer. Pesach pretzels are Shehakol! 😝
My barber needs your support, hes a real sweetheart.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-our-barber-shop

Offline Shmobaum

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 503
  • Total likes: 147
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: National EE, Hertz Presidential, Marriott Gold Elite, Daf Yomi Presidential Platinum Premier
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2020, 10:21:37 AM »
Yup, I see it there, very mechudesh, ask your Ruv if he agrees with that.
Hes only being lenient because of the shaas hadchak. But hes one of the greatest poskim in the world.

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 22166
  • Total likes: 686
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2020, 10:21:55 AM »
Should have known, the only way to shut down minyanim would be to get women involved.

Easier to get a DDF thread locked than to get a minyan in NYC shut down.
My barber needs your support, hes a real sweetheart.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-our-barber-shop

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 22166
  • Total likes: 686
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2020, 10:22:58 AM »
Can I ask a question about laws?  :)

Only Chaim Masochistowitz can ask such questions
My barber needs your support, hes a real sweetheart.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-our-barber-shop

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 876
  • Total likes: 360
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2020, 10:28:44 AM »
Hes only being lenient because of the shaas hadchak. But hes one of the greatest poskim in the world.
I know his status well, quite suitable.

Offline Vesko

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 17
  • Total likes: 14
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2020, 11:33:32 AM »
My personal take:
In Wuhan, Spain, Italy, and England, there were set times that people went on their porches to sing, serenade each other, yell to each other, applaud medical workers, ect. Everyone in the world thought it was wonderful, and there were laudatory headlines and videos everywhere. Suddenly, when people are doing the same thing to sing and praise Hashem, they're evil. It feels to me like the story with the yid on the train in the 1950s, that someone came over to him and berated him for the chilul Hashem he was causing by dressing in the old world style long coat, hat, and beard. The person looked at the yeller blankly and said "I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm Amish, and this is how we preserve our traditions. I'm sorry if it offends you." The yeller apologized profusely, and said how wonderful he thought it was that he was preserving the ways of his ancestors and how he should be proud of it... The "Amish" guy said to him "For the Amish it's wonderful and praiseworthy, but for a yid it's a chilul Hashem"?

In addition, many non essential businesses are still open, and I don't see people getting emotional about people attending. I haven't seen a single business where appropriate social distancing measures were maintained. Not a single one. Not banks, not pharmacies, not supermarkets... Nothing. In fact, it's nearly impossible for appropriate non contagion measures to be maintained in these settings. Yet I don't see anyone getting emotional about them. I have seen minyanim where appropriate distances were maintained. An outdoor minyan setting is significantly more feasible to maintain a safe environment than a store, being as not everyone needs to be in the same aisles getting the same items by necessity, it's possible to be over a much larger area, and people are not touching the same surfaces. Yet all these pseudo epidemiologists that speak 3 words of Yiddish and know how to yell in a WhatsApp video are convinced that all these people that ch'v answer amen yehei shmei rabbah are rotzchim.

If we were taking social distancing as seriously as these people feel we should, every store should be closed. Yes, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Forget about the liquor stores and other ridiculous stores that are legally allowed to remain open (I haven't seen a single WhatsApp video ranting about those-in fact, it seems that the august darshanim like to utilize them...)-every food store and pharmacy should be closed too. They can all be converted to deliver only, and organizations can be mobilized and arranged to take orders, pack them, and deliver them. Kreindy won't get the brand mayonnaise she likes, and Berel won't get his favorite rack of ribs? They'll survive on potatoes and matzah. I'm well aware that people need emergency medications ect... They can all be delivered. These stores are infinitely more dangerous than minyanim, based on the apparent impossibility to operate them in a safe mannerism. If every guy that is ranting about people davening with a minyan would volunteer to help take orders and deliver, this would be entirely doable. This is a warzone we're talking about, not peacetime. Nobody should be talking about how this isn't feasible because their kids get cranky if they don't have fresh milk and eggs and their favorite brand cereal every 2 days.

Different people seem to have different priorities. I think the same people that rant about the chilul Hashem of minyanim on airplanes, the chilul Hashem of men not sitting next to women, and the chilul Hashem of the Yidden in the 1950s that walked around with a yarmulke and peyos and beard are ranting about this. It depends which religion you subscribe to.

This is my personal take.

However, I am wrong. That is because I asked my posek, one of the gedolim in America, (and I heard the same from someone else who personally asked another very choshuve posek that has been consulted about life and death questions for decades), and he said not to participate in a such a minyan, even if it is being operated on a mannerism that most doctors would consider 100% safe. He did not explain why.

Every person has to have a Rav that they listen to אפילו אם אמר על שמאל ימין ועל ימין שמאל, and this is what my Rav said. Therefore, I am 100% wrong, and all my logic otherwise is worthless.

I must admit that it's very difficult for me. There is a minyan outside my house that consists of a few different families, each on their own individual property in their single family homes, well more than all the recommended distances apart. I literally just have to walk onto my front porch to be part of the minyan, and I hear them davening. Listening to a ruling that is nearly a chok to me is personally very difficult. However, that is the halacha, and I believe that a person who listens to their Rav no matter what does not regret it, and that is what will being the geulah more than any minyan.

 כשם שמקבלים שכר על הדרישה, כך מקבלים שכר על הפרישה.

(Repost because first got lost.)

Online KSMH

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2018
  • Posts: 2174
  • Total likes: 295
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2020, 11:43:54 AM »
My personal take:
In Wuhan, Spain, Italy, and England, there were set times that people went on their porches to sing, serenade each other, yell to each other, applaud medical workers, ect. Everyone in the world thought it was wonderful, and there were laudatory headlines and videos everywhere. Suddenly, when people are doing the same thing to sing and praise Hashem, they're evil. It feels to me like the story with the yid on the train in the 1950s, that someone came over to him and berated him for the chilul Hashem he was causing by dressing in the old world style long coat, hat, and beard. The person looked at the yeller blankly and said "I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm Amish, and this is how we preserve our traditions. I'm sorry if it offends you." The yeller apologized profusely, and said how wonderful he thought it was that he was preserving the ways of his ancestors and how he should be proud of it... The "Amish" guy said to him "For the Amish it's wonderful and praiseworthy, but for a yid it's a chilul Hashem"?

In addition, many non essential businesses are still open, and I don't see people getting emotional about people attending. I haven't seen a single business where appropriate social distancing measures were maintained. Not a single one. Not banks, not pharmacies, not supermarkets... Nothing. In fact, it's nearly impossible for appropriate non contagion measures to be maintained in these settings. Yet I don't see anyone getting emotional about them. I have seen minyanim where appropriate distances were maintained. An outdoor minyan setting is significantly more feasible to maintain a safe environment than a store, being as not everyone needs to be in the same aisles getting the same items by necessity, it's possible to be over a much larger area, and people are not touching the same surfaces. Yet all these pseudo epidemiologists that speak 3 words of Yiddish and know how to yell in a WhatsApp video are convinced that all these people that ch'v answer amen yehei shmei rabbah are rotzchim.

If we were taking social distancing as seriously as these people feel we should, every store should be closed. Yes, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Forget about the liquor stores and other ridiculous stores that are legally allowed to remain open (I haven't seen a single WhatsApp video ranting about those-in fact, it seems that the august darshanim like to utilize them...)-every food store and pharmacy should be closed too. They can all be converted to deliver only, and organizations can be mobilized and arranged to take orders, pack them, and deliver them. Kreindy won't get the brand mayonnaise she likes, and Berel won't get his favorite rack of ribs? They'll survive on potatoes and matzah. I'm well aware that people need emergency medications ect... They can all be delivered. These stores are infinitely more dangerous than minyanim, based on the apparent impossibility to operate them in a safe mannerism. If every guy that is ranting about people davening with a minyan would volunteer to help take orders and deliver, this would be entirely doable. This is a warzone we're talking about, not peacetime. Nobody should be talking about how this isn't feasible because their kids get cranky if they don't have fresh milk and eggs and their favorite brand cereal every 2 days.

Different people seem to have different priorities. I think the same people that rant about the chilul Hashem of minyanim on airplanes, the chilul Hashem of men not sitting next to women, and the chilul Hashem of the Yidden in the 1950s that walked around with a yarmulke and peyos and beard are ranting about this. It depends which religion you subscribe to.

This is my personal take.

However, I am wrong. That is because I asked my posek, one of the gedolim in America, (and I heard the same from someone else who personally asked another very choshuve posek that has been consulted about life and death questions for decades), and he said not to participate in a such a minyan, even if it is being operated on a mannerism that most doctors would consider 100% safe. He did not explain why.

Every person has to have a Rav that they listen to אפילו אם אמר על שמאל ימין ועל ימין שמאל, and this is what my Rav said. Therefore, I am 100% wrong, and all my logic otherwise is worthless.

I must admit that it's very difficult for me. There is a minyan outside my house that consists of a few different families, each on their own individual property in their single family homes, well more than all the recommended distances apart. I literally just have to walk onto my front porch to be part of the minyan, and I hear them davening. Listening to a ruling that is nearly a chok to me is personally very difficult. However, that is the halacha, and I believe that a person who listens to their Rav no matter what does not regret it, and that is what will being the geulah more than any minyan.

 כשם שמקבלים שכר על הדרישה, כך מקבלים שכר על הפרישה.

(Repost because first got lost.)
Very well written.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Online Yef

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 160
  • Total likes: 19
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2020, 11:50:54 AM »
This is very well said. The only thing i will add is that there are Gedolei Yisroel that hold you can make a minyan if its done in a proper fashion.

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 22166
  • Total likes: 686
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2020, 11:57:39 AM »
This is very well said. The only thing i will add is that there are Gedolei Yisroel that hold you can make a minyan if its done in a proper fashion.

What are the actual Gedolim doing and why wont they make their position public?
My barber needs your support, hes a real sweetheart.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-our-barber-shop

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 4644
  • Total likes: 163
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: Long Island
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2020, 12:09:23 PM »
The poskim in America said no minyanim period. Why do we have the right to argue with them? If your specific rav allows you to do porch minyanim then by all means go ahead. But the big poskim in America have spoken. If we dont listen to them its gonna be real dangerous in the future with our chinuch when well try to get the next generation to have kavod and yiras chachomim.
Actually, if most psokim in a community said not to make outdoor minyamin, an individual Rav does not have the right to give permission. it's classic poresh min hatzibur
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Online monoso

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 79
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2020, 12:38:14 PM »
My personal take:
In Wuhan, Spain, Italy, and England, there were set times that people went on their porches to sing, serenade each other, yell to each other, applaud medical workers, ect. Everyone in the world thought it was wonderful, and there were laudatory headlines and videos everywhere. Suddenly, when people are doing the same thing to sing and praise Hashem, they're evil. It feels to me like the story with the yid on the train in the 1950s, that someone came over to him and berated him for the chilul Hashem he was causing by dressing in the old world style long coat, hat, and beard. The person looked at the yeller blankly and said "I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm Amish, and this is how we preserve our traditions. I'm sorry if it offends you." The yeller apologized profusely, and said how wonderful he thought it was that he was preserving the ways of his ancestors and how he should be proud of it... The "Amish" guy said to him "For the Amish it's wonderful and praiseworthy, but for a yid it's a chilul Hashem"?

In addition, many non essential businesses are still open, and I don't see people getting emotional about people attending. I haven't seen a single business where appropriate social distancing measures were maintained. Not a single one. Not banks, not pharmacies, not supermarkets... Nothing. In fact, it's nearly impossible for appropriate non contagion measures to be maintained in these settings. Yet I don't see anyone getting emotional about them. I have seen minyanim where appropriate distances were maintained. An outdoor minyan setting is significantly more feasible to maintain a safe environment than a store, being as not everyone needs to be in the same aisles getting the same items by necessity, it's possible to be over a much larger area, and people are not touching the same surfaces. Yet all these pseudo epidemiologists that speak 3 words of Yiddish and know how to yell in a WhatsApp video are convinced that all these people that ch'v answer amen yehei shmei rabbah are rotzchim.

If we were taking social distancing as seriously as these people feel we should, every store should be closed. Yes, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Forget about the liquor stores and other ridiculous stores that are legally allowed to remain open (I haven't seen a single WhatsApp video ranting about those-in fact, it seems that the august darshanim like to utilize them...)-every food store and pharmacy should be closed too. They can all be converted to deliver only, and organizations can be mobilized and arranged to take orders, pack them, and deliver them. Kreindy won't get the brand mayonnaise she likes, and Berel won't get his favorite rack of ribs? They'll survive on potatoes and matzah. I'm well aware that people need emergency medications ect... They can all be delivered. These stores are infinitely more dangerous than minyanim, based on the apparent impossibility to operate them in a safe mannerism. If every guy that is ranting about people davening with a minyan would volunteer to help take orders and deliver, this would be entirely doable. This is a warzone we're talking about, not peacetime. Nobody should be talking about how this isn't feasible because their kids get cranky if they don't have fresh milk and eggs and their favorite brand cereal every 2 days.

Different people seem to have different priorities. I think the same people that rant about the chilul Hashem of minyanim on airplanes, the chilul Hashem of men not sitting next to women, and the chilul Hashem of the Yidden in the 1950s that walked around with a yarmulke and peyos and beard are ranting about this. It depends which religion you subscribe to.

This is my personal take.

However, I am wrong. That is because I asked my posek, one of the gedolim in America, (and I heard the same from someone else who personally asked another very choshuve posek that has been consulted about life and death questions for decades), and he said not to participate in a such a minyan, even if it is being operated on a mannerism that most doctors would consider 100% safe. He did not explain why.

Every person has to have a Rav that they listen to אפילו אם אמר על שמאל ימין ועל ימין שמאל, and this is what my Rav said. Therefore, I am 100% wrong, and all my logic otherwise is worthless.

I must admit that it's very difficult for me. There is a minyan outside my house that consists of a few different families, each on their own individual property in their single family homes, well more than all the recommended distances apart. I literally just have to walk onto my front porch to be part of the minyan, and I hear them davening. Listening to a ruling that is nearly a chok to me is personally very difficult. However, that is the halacha, and I believe that a person who listens to their Rav no matter what does not regret it, and that is what will being the geulah more than any minyan.

 כשם שמקבלים שכר על הדרישה, כך מקבלים שכר על הפרישה.

(Repost because first got lost.)
The reason your posek ruled not to attend those minyanim is the same reason for almost every halacha derabanan. Its a geder. Its more than obviously possible to have minyamim where it will be perfectly safe to attend and Im sure every rov recognized the possibility yet they still said not to attend. That is because others are going to copy and not be as strict with the rules, and even if your minyan starts off following the rules it is too easy for people to stop.
 Granted more stores should be closed and liquor stores should not be allowed open but minyanim are more akin to dining in restaurants and bars in regards to sociality and time spend in one area with the same people. Stores and banks and the sort are more of a means of stopping panic which can cause far worse to happen. You also cant compare singing on porches to having minyanim on porches. A more fair equivalent would be having a non essential business on a porch which should be fine but it would still be against the law. There is no room for exceptions.
 And yes people should be avoiding shopping to whatever degree they could.
The fact is minyanim are not at all halachicly required when it maybe pikuach nefesh which it is and people assume that the minyan is not perfect and thus it is a chillul hashem.
( A large part of the reason why people are upset at minyanim is because why do you think you are better than everyone else, everyone can make a minyan (at least during the week) in a socially distanced environment which can be done in any backyard.)   
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 12:42:34 PM by monoso »

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 876
  • Total likes: 360
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2020, 12:51:27 PM »
What are the actual Gedolim doing and why wont they make their position public?
Depends where, Chasidishe don't oppose it for the most part, same as they do it in Israel. There is no unanimous consensus to oppose backyard/porch minyanim as it may sound here again and again. 

Online shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2544
  • Total likes: 280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2020, 12:55:11 PM »
1. Where I live, stores are requiring masks and gloves, have glass partitions between cashiers and customers, and tape on the floors directing people where to wait in line. People also aren't standing in the same place very long, and most people are going out once a week.

Many so called safe minyanim break down as they get more crowded or if people inch to hear kriyas HaTorah. It's daily (if not more) and for a much longer duration.

Pikuach nefesh is also a major overriding factor here.

If everyone is on his own property (safely), I think a minyan without laining would be fine, but that's only feasible in a minority of cases.

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 22166
  • Total likes: 686
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 74
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #88 on: April 13, 2020, 12:56:25 PM »
Depends where, Chasidishe don't oppose it for the most part, same as they do it in Israel. There is no unanimous consensus to oppose backyard/porch minyanim as it may sound here again and again. 

That wasnt my question. What are the Rabbis on the Moetzes (for instance) doing? Pictorial evidence is even better.
My barber needs your support, hes a real sweetheart.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-our-barber-shop

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 876
  • Total likes: 360
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #89 on: April 13, 2020, 12:57:45 PM »
That wasnt my question. What are the Rabbis on the Moetzes (for instance) doing? Pictorial evidence is even better.
Plenty of that too.