Author Topic: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim  (Read 12728 times)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2020, 01:05:06 PM »
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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #91 on: April 13, 2020, 01:17:11 PM »
Specifically?
Saw it in the newspaper gallery pages 2 weeks ago, which I skip as usual. I can throw you some names if that matters, Viznits, Bobov, Satmar etc. Every single Rebbele has his tight minyan. Plus I know many dayanim davening from their porches.

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #92 on: April 13, 2020, 02:24:42 PM »
Needless to say I think its obvious that you want find any noted persona making a public statement allowing Minyanim. Events surrounding recent controversies have made people smarter about how their opinions and pesakim can end up in the wrong places where they are misunderstood or used to promote hatred and the like.

As stated earlier your LOR is (as always) a great resource for guidance.

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #93 on: April 13, 2020, 02:31:53 PM »
For all the #CoronaMinyanim lovers

https://streamable.com/42cmei

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #94 on: April 13, 2020, 02:32:47 PM »
I would think the reason Rabbonim are not willing to publicly give approval for these minyonim is because these heterim will spread and ultimately there will be people that based on this psak will have minyonim without proper distancing.

One of the rabbonim in my neighborhood on ey"t publicized an OK to make these minyonim and yesterday sent a clarification with many conditions. Another rav in my neighborhood has not publicly said anything but I think he is davening with a small porch minyan following all distancing guidelines.

Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #95 on: April 13, 2020, 02:37:36 PM »
My personal take:
In Wuhan, Spain, Italy, and England, there were set times that people went on their porches to sing, serenade each other, yell to each other, applaud medical workers, ect. Everyone in the world thought it was wonderful, and there were laudatory headlines and videos everywhere. Suddenly, when people are doing the same thing to sing and praise Hashem, they're evil. It feels to me like the story with the yid on the train in the 1950s, that someone came over to him and berated him for the chilul Hashem he was causing by dressing in the old world style long coat, hat, and beard. The person looked at the yeller blankly and said "I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm Amish, and this is how we preserve our traditions. I'm sorry if it offends you." The yeller apologized profusely, and said how wonderful he thought it was that he was preserving the ways of his ancestors and how he should be proud of it... The "Amish" guy said to him "For the Amish it's wonderful and praiseworthy, but for a yid it's a chilul Hashem"?

In addition, many non essential businesses are still open, and I don't see people getting emotional about people attending. I haven't seen a single business where appropriate social distancing measures were maintained. Not a single one. Not banks, not pharmacies, not supermarkets... Nothing. In fact, it's nearly impossible for appropriate non contagion measures to be maintained in these settings. Yet I don't see anyone getting emotional about them. I have seen minyanim where appropriate distances were maintained. An outdoor minyan setting is significantly more feasible to maintain a safe environment than a store, being as not everyone needs to be in the same aisles getting the same items by necessity, it's possible to be over a much larger area, and people are not touching the same surfaces. Yet all these pseudo epidemiologists that speak 3 words of Yiddish and know how to yell in a WhatsApp video are convinced that all these people that ch'v answer amen yehei shmei rabbah are rotzchim.

If we were taking social distancing as seriously as these people feel we should, every store should be closed. Yes, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Forget about the liquor stores and other ridiculous stores that are legally allowed to remain open (I haven't seen a single WhatsApp video ranting about those-in fact, it seems that the august darshanim like to utilize them...)-every food store and pharmacy should be closed too. They can all be converted to deliver only, and organizations can be mobilized and arranged to take orders, pack them, and deliver them. Kreindy won't get the brand mayonnaise she likes, and Berel won't get his favorite rack of ribs? They'll survive on potatoes and matzah. I'm well aware that people need emergency medications ect... They can all be delivered. These stores are infinitely more dangerous than minyanim, based on the apparent impossibility to operate them in a safe mannerism. If every guy that is ranting about people davening with a minyan would volunteer to help take orders and deliver, this would be entirely doable. This is a warzone we're talking about, not peacetime. Nobody should be talking about how this isn't feasible because their kids get cranky if they don't have fresh milk and eggs and their favorite brand cereal every 2 days.

Different people seem to have different priorities. I think the same people that rant about the chilul Hashem of minyanim on airplanes, the chilul Hashem of men not sitting next to women, and the chilul Hashem of the Yidden in the 1950s that walked around with a yarmulke and peyos and beard are ranting about this. It depends which religion you subscribe to.

This is my personal take.

However, I am wrong. That is because I asked my posek, one of the gedolim in America, (and I heard the same from someone else who personally asked another very choshuve posek that has been consulted about life and death questions for decades), and he said not to participate in a such a minyan, even if it is being operated on a mannerism that most doctors would consider 100% safe. He did not explain why.

Every person has to have a Rav that they listen to אפילו אם אמר על שמאל ימין ועל ימין שמאל, and this is what my Rav said. Therefore, I am 100% wrong, and all my logic otherwise is worthless.

I must admit that it's very difficult for me. There is a minyan outside my house that consists of a few different families, each on their own individual property in their single family homes, well more than all the recommended distances apart. I literally just have to walk onto my front porch to be part of the minyan, and I hear them davening. Listening to a ruling that is nearly a chok to me is personally very difficult. However, that is the halacha, and I believe that a person who listens to their Rav no matter what does not regret it, and that is what will being the geulah more than any minyan.

 כשם שמקבלים שכר על הדרישה, כך מקבלים שכר על הפרישה.

(Repost because first got lost.)
Well said

Agree 100%

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #96 on: April 13, 2020, 02:41:58 PM »
My personal take:
In Wuhan, Spain, Italy, and England, there were set times that people went on their porches to sing, serenade each other, yell to each other, applaud medical workers, ect. Everyone in the world thought it was wonderful, and there were laudatory headlines and videos everywhere. Suddenly, when people are doing the same thing to sing and praise Hashem, they're evil. It feels to me like the story with the yid on the train in the 1950s, that someone came over to him and berated him for the chilul Hashem he was causing by dressing in the old world style long coat, hat, and beard. The person looked at the yeller blankly and said "I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm Amish, and this is how we preserve our traditions. I'm sorry if it offends you." The yeller apologized profusely, and said how wonderful he thought it was that he was preserving the ways of his ancestors and how he should be proud of it... The "Amish" guy said to him "For the Amish it's wonderful and praiseworthy, but for a yid it's a chilul Hashem"?

In addition, many non essential businesses are still open, and I don't see people getting emotional about people attending. I haven't seen a single business where appropriate social distancing measures were maintained. Not a single one. Not banks, not pharmacies, not supermarkets... Nothing. In fact, it's nearly impossible for appropriate non contagion measures to be maintained in these settings. Yet I don't see anyone getting emotional about them. I have seen minyanim where appropriate distances were maintained. An outdoor minyan setting is significantly more feasible to maintain a safe environment than a store, being as not everyone needs to be in the same aisles getting the same items by necessity, it's possible to be over a much larger area, and people are not touching the same surfaces. Yet all these pseudo epidemiologists that speak 3 words of Yiddish and know how to yell in a WhatsApp video are convinced that all these people that ch'v answer amen yehei shmei rabbah are rotzchim.

If we were taking social distancing as seriously as these people feel we should, every store should be closed. Yes, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Forget about the liquor stores and other ridiculous stores that are legally allowed to remain open (I haven't seen a single WhatsApp video ranting about those-in fact, it seems that the august darshanim like to utilize them...)-every food store and pharmacy should be closed too. They can all be converted to deliver only, and organizations can be mobilized and arranged to take orders, pack them, and deliver them. Kreindy won't get the brand mayonnaise she likes, and Berel won't get his favorite rack of ribs? They'll survive on potatoes and matzah. I'm well aware that people need emergency medications ect... They can all be delivered. These stores are infinitely more dangerous than minyanim, based on the apparent impossibility to operate them in a safe mannerism. If every guy that is ranting about people davening with a minyan would volunteer to help take orders and deliver, this would be entirely doable. This is a warzone we're talking about, not peacetime. Nobody should be talking about how this isn't feasible because their kids get cranky if they don't have fresh milk and eggs and their favorite brand cereal every 2 days.

Different people seem to have different priorities. I think the same people that rant about the chilul Hashem of minyanim on airplanes, the chilul Hashem of men not sitting next to women, and the chilul Hashem of the Yidden in the 1950s that walked around with a yarmulke and peyos and beard are ranting about this. It depends which religion you subscribe to.

This is my personal take.

However, I am wrong. That is because I asked my posek, one of the gedolim in America, (and I heard the same from someone else who personally asked another very choshuve posek that has been consulted about life and death questions for decades), and he said not to participate in a such a minyan, even if it is being operated on a mannerism that most doctors would consider 100% safe. He did not explain why.

Every person has to have a Rav that they listen to אפילו אם אמר על שמאל ימין ועל ימין שמאל, and this is what my Rav said. Therefore, I am 100% wrong, and all my logic otherwise is worthless.

I must admit that it's very difficult for me. There is a minyan outside my house that consists of a few different families, each on their own individual property in their single family homes, well more than all the recommended distances apart. I literally just have to walk onto my front porch to be part of the minyan, and I hear them davening. Listening to a ruling that is nearly a chok to me is personally very difficult. However, that is the halacha, and I believe that a person who listens to their Rav no matter what does not regret it, and that is what will being the geulah more than any minyan.

 כשם שמקבלים שכר על הדרישה, כך מקבלים שכר על הפרישה.

(Repost because first got lost.)
Some of your points are well taken. Although not everything can be compared to a real sakana, hence the psak. The fact that many store owners and store goers aren't careful is their own fault. If we lived under the rule of Dovid Hamelech, Shlomo etc., I bet that stores would be shut for anything other than for absolute necessities.

My peeve is about guys who aren't careful with minyan btzibbur screaming at others to close minyanim. Are they right about the danger? Yes. But lets be honest. How many guys fly around the world on vacations or just for fun or because they have the points, who miss out tfila btzibur. Anyone like that wouldn't think twice to not show up to shul if it seems necessary. Their angry for all the wrong reasons.

The people that count are those who never miss minyan btzibur unless for a tzorech gadol. If those people are staying home, you can be sure there is what to rely on.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #97 on: April 13, 2020, 02:46:39 PM »
Needless to say I think its obvious that you want find any noted persona making a public statement allowing Minyanim. Events surrounding recent controversies have made people smarter about how their opinions and pesakim can end up in the wrong places where they are misunderstood or used to promote hatred and the like.

As stated earlier your LOR is (as always) a great resource for guidance.

Im sorry, but thatís a cop out. Maybe weíre a dor yasom and we lack real leaders. But if weíre going to call them our leaders then they have to take a position.
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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2020, 02:49:04 PM »
Im sorry, but thatís a cop out. Maybe weíre a dor yasom and we lack real leaders. But if weíre going to call them our leaders then they have to take a position.
Correct, but not everything suppose to be under an official letterhead and with big קידוש לבנה אותיות.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #99 on: April 13, 2020, 02:50:40 PM »
I would think the reason Rabbonim are not willing to publicly give approval for these minyonim is because these heterim will spread and ultimately there will be people that based on this psak will have minyonim without proper distancing.

If the heter can lead to that then the Rabbi issuing the heter must consider the broader effect of this. Itís almost a given to me that if heterim are broadly issued for minyanim to take place, then no matter the restrictions/stipulations there will be compromises on social distancing. The extent is TBD, but itís a slippery slope.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2020, 02:51:52 PM »
Correct, but not everything suppose to be under an official letterhead and with big קידוש לבנה אותיות.

Itís much better that way (explicitly on their letterhead) than with conflicting misinformation where it isnít clear who said what or what their position actually is.
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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #101 on: April 13, 2020, 02:53:09 PM »
Some of your points are well taken. Although not everything can be compared to a real sakana, hence the psak. The fact that many store owners and store goers aren't careful is their own fault. If we lived under the rule of Dovid Hamelech, Shlomo etc., I bet that stores would be shut for anything other than for absolute necessities.

My peeve is about guys who aren't careful with minyan btzibbur screaming at others to close minyanim. Are they right about the danger? Yes. But lets be honest. How many guys fly around the world on vacations or just for fun or because they have the points, who miss out tfila btzibur. Anyone like that wouldn't think twice to not show up to shul if it seems necessary. Their angry for all the wrong reasons.

The people that count are those who never miss minyan btzibur unless for a tzorech gadol. If those people are staying home, you can be sure there is what to rely on.
I will respectfully disagree with your analogy. Taking a vacation to a place without a minyan is halachically acceptable. Vacation for most is a tzorech gadol. Now someone that will daven maariv at home because it's raining outside and he is tired, or will wake up late and miss minyan, or when on vacation in a place that has a minyan won't trouble himself with attending because it's inconvenient, for those people I agree with you.

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #102 on: April 13, 2020, 02:56:05 PM »
If the heter can lead to that then the Rabbi issuing the heter must consider the broader effect of this. Itís almost a given to me that if heterim are broadly issued for minyanim to take place, then no matter the restrictions/stipulations there will be compromises on social distancing. The extent is TBD, but itís a slippery slope.
Thats exactly my point, that although many rabbonim hold that way they will not say it publicly because of the reasons you mention.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #103 on: April 13, 2020, 03:00:32 PM »
Thats exactly my point, that although many rabbonim hold that way they will not say it publicly because of the reasons you mention.

My point is that in that case they shouldnít hold that way in the first place. The issue isnít publicizing the psak, Whatsapp can do that quicker than any letterhead. The issue is the slippery slope, and issuing the psak on the hush hush does nothing to mitigate that.
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Re: Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2020, 04:21:36 PM »
I will respectfully disagree with your analogy. Taking a vacation to a place without a minyan is halachically acceptable. Vacation for most is a tzorech gadol. Now someone that will daven maariv at home because it's raining outside and he is tired, or will wake up late and miss minyan, or when on vacation in a place that has a minyan won't trouble himself with attending because it's inconvenient, for those people I agree with you.
First of all, lets be clear what is meant by vacation. Do you mean someone who works all year and takes off for just a few days?

Or is it someone who vacations a lot because they have the time, money, points - then it certainly is not a tzorech gadol.

And why can't the tzorech gadol vacationer travel to a place that does have a local minyan? 

The point is that if you find yourself missing minyan for travel (pleasure), other than for a true tzorech - then you have no right to yell at people now. You just aren't credible enough to make a case.
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