Halachik Status of Illegitimate Minyanim

[yaakov35]

I think it is safe to say 90% of BP davinid with a minyan the past Yom tov. Be it in shuls (50-70% are open) or on porch minyanim.
Also I know tens of rabonim in bp davinid with a minyanim, I don't know a single one davining without

I think your overrating the amount of shuls opened. Definitely lots of outdoor minyanim.

[Shmobaum]

Rav Bik’s shul on 52/19 open with only 10 ppl doors locked.
Skulya Shul 48/14 open only ten ppl who had the virus already...
Bobov 48 only ten ppl doors locked.

These are what I know for a fact.

[mgarfin]

I think your overrating the amount of shuls opened. Definitely lots of outdoor minyanim.

Just in the 2 block radius around me there are 8 Shuls open (to some extent)

[yaakov35]

I think what people here aren't understanding is that every single person in the places with shuls open, that's been out of their house since beginning of March has been exposed numerous times. I still find it mind boggling how these people are starting Shiva now and the shuls are already opening. Outdoor minyanim I hear, but I guess they really don't care

[S209]

I'm genuinely stunned. R"l. I just don't know what to say anymore.

It’s really unreal. I know that correlation DOES NOT equal causation but you can’t see this and not think about what could have been..

I know of AT LEAST 3 shuls that stayed open where the Rav has since been niftar of corona (there’s a 4th but I’m not positive it was corona he was very old). In the Yeshiva I attended, they stayed open for more than a week and a half after people woke up (2+ weeks after Purim) Since then..

Rosh Yeshiva A: Left hospital after being in serious condition on chol hamoed
Rosh Yeshiva A’s mother: niftar over Yom Tov
Rosh Yeshiva B: On a ventilator
Rosh Yeshiva C’s mother: on a ventilator
Menahel’s wife: on a ventilator
Rosh Chabura: niftar before Yom Tov

Note that they all fell ill well after the bulk of infections started. There was also a Rosh Kollel who was reported ill but I have not heard that he was hospitalized. In another Yeshiva I have a relative attending, they stayed open past Rosh Chodesh. Currently..

Rosh Yeshiva: on a ventilator and considered very very critical
Maggid Shiur: on a ventilator

Every single thing in this post is confirmed first hand info

[aygart]

I am curious with your opinion that porch minyanim in the US was cancelled for health reasons whereas in Israel it is being done legally EVERYWHERE and there are no issues. Why is one country different then another? the only reason I can see is Eiva. It makes no sense that people cant stand on their porches to daven for health reasons. If there was a health issue then dont go play in your yard either.

The facts on the ground are different in Israel than in the US. The buildings are different. The government rules are different.

There are definitely some rabbonim who no matter what will not take this seriously. There are also some which have the mindset that of what they are doing can be called safe then they don't need to think about what others will take out from it. Others are looking to what has happened when there are porch minyanim and have seen how there were always people joining in ways that are unsafe. Therefore they needed to stop them.

[AsherO]

I feel like there isn’t enough Mikvah-quality data on DDF about what’s happening Shul-wise in Bnei Brak.

[yitzgar]

It’s really unreal. I know that correlation DOES NOT equal causation but you can’t see this and not think about what could have been..

I know of AT LEAST 3 shuls that stayed open where the Rav has since been niftar of corona (there’s a 4th but I’m not positive it was corona he was very old). In the Yeshiva I attended, they stayed open for more than a week and a half after people woke up (2+ weeks after Purim) Since then..

Rosh Yeshiva A: Left hospital after being in serious condition on chol hamoed
Rosh Yeshiva A’s mother: niftar over Yom Tov
Rosh Yeshiva B: On a ventilator
Rosh Yeshiva C’s mother: on a ventilator
Menahel’s wife: on a ventilator
Rosh Chabura: niftar before Yom Tov

Note that they all fell ill well after the bulk of infections started. There was also a Rosh Kollel who was reported ill but I have not heard that he was hospitalized. In another Yeshiva I have a relative attending, they stayed open past Rosh Chodesh. Currently..

Rosh Yeshiva: on a ventilator and considered very very critical
Maggid Shiur: on a ventilator

Every single thing in this post is confirmed first hand info

Difference is if these places are still open/reopening.....

[aygart]

I know of one Rov who told his kehilla that they could have porch minyanim. They all gathered onto one porch for a minyan. A good portion of the attendees hadn't heard borchu in years.

[chff]

So to discuss a different angle related to the c**p tornado that is this thread...

This minyan is somewhat visible through the trees from my deck, where I tend to daven, and it can normally be heard quite clearly.

I've decided not to answer amen when I hear them say kaddish and so on - I feel that this minyan is a case of 'בוצע ברך נאץ ה. Is this a valid halachic mehalech?

יש על מי לסמוך

[KSMH]

Heard from a Rav that due to the fact that many did not head advice of the 4 poskim signing the letter not to make any minyanim   their decree is void to the klal.  This is due to the fact that its considered "not accepted".

Thier own constituents shall continue listening to them.

I am merely repeating someone's opinion.

[yesitsme]

Heard from a Rav that due to the fact that many did not head advice of the 4 poskim signing the letter not to make any minyanim   their decree is void to the klal.  This is due to the fact that its considered "not accepted".

Thier own constituents shall continue listening to them.

I am merely repeating someone's opinion.

which rav?

what does rebb malkiel have to say on this?

[KSMH]

which rav?

what does rebb malkiel have to say on this?

A Rav to his own members.

He does not consider himself to be a "klals" rav so I won't publicize his name.

I've heard that the letter did not have a  BMG letterhead for a reason, but who knows. Rav Malkeil is usally more extreme so I'd guess there can be some accuracy to what I've heard, but again who knows.

[Jeremiah]

https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/lakewood-askonim-covid-19-infection-rate-hospital-capacity-aiva-minyanim-weddings-and-more.html

[KSMH]

https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/lakewood-askonim-covid-19-infection-rate-hospital-capacity-aiva-minyanim-weddings-and-more.html

It's legal now, why look to revisit a topic.

[yesitsme]

I nice way to climb down the tree

[KSMH]

I nice way to climb down the tree

They keep building one that does not exist.

Someone needs to OPRA LKWD police ond OCPO to review thier compliance efforts within LKWD.

I've heard reports of  OCS literally swarming the place in hope's of finding something illegal.

People have been getting fined for doing nothing wrong.

The only way it'll ever stop is when the are confronted. Not when "askanim" try helping. In lkwd the "askanim" are not made of NYC quality.

[aygart]

They keep building one that does not exist.

Someone needs to OPRA LKWD police ond OCPO to review thier compliance efforts within LKWD.

I've heard reports of  OCS literally swarming the place in hope's of finding something illegal.

People have been getting fined for doing nothing wrong.

The only way it'll ever stop is when the are confronted. Not when "askanim" try helping. In lkwd the "askanim" are not made of NYC quality.

Some heads definitely need to roll. When the most OCP office can say about a bus delivering meals is that it is under investigation that is a HUGE problem.

[KSMH]

Some heads definitely need to roll. When the most OCP office can say about a bus delivering meals is that it is under investigation that is a HUGE problem.

Is it time for a GoFundMe legal compain to investigate these claims?

I think its past due Jewish community's in the USA set up a legal fund to help with these cases of discrimination. A ACLU/NAACP sort of thingy.

The Agudah is usally to late and to little.

[Shmobaum]

Heard from a Rav that due to the fact that many did not head advice of the 4 poskim signing the letter not to make any minyanim   their decree is void to the klal.  This is due to the fact that its considered "not accepted".

Thier own constituents shall continue listening to them.

I am merely repeating someone's opinion.

That’s what I just heard as well. Look in the daf we learnt on Yom TOV about gezairahs that assur everything...