Topic Wiki

Initiative to lower the standards:   https://simchainitiative.org/

Mishpacha Article link:                     https://mishpacha.com/at-all-costs/
                                                     https://mishpacha.com/at-all-costs-the-conversation-continues-2/

Jewish Pr. Interview W/R Reisman   https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/interviews-and-profiles/over-1300-sign-pledge-to-hold-simpler-weddings-an-interview-with-rav-yisroel-reisman-rosh-yeshiva-of-torah-vodaath/2020/05/13/

Some interesting articles covering the guidelines from similar efforts 20 years ago

https://agudah.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/JO2002-V35-N06.pdf  page 10 article by Prof. Aaron Twerski
https://agudah.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/JO2006-V39-N041.pdf page 43 article by R Aryeh Zev Ginzberg
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/25/us/religion-journal-a-big-wedding-with-a-smaller-bill.html
« Last edited by David61 on May 28, 2020, 06:29:23 PM »

Poll

Wedding expenses in the frum community

Thank G-d for simchas
12 (6%)
This has gotten out of hand and a remedy is needed
149 (74.9%)
It's a problem but has always been this way and we'll manage as we have till now
38 (19.1%)

Total Members Voted: 199

Author Topic: POLL: Wedding expenses in the frum Community - BH for simchos? or out of hand?  (Read 120134 times)

Online yelped

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BP, Monsey & Williamsburg.. mostly yes... its insane whats going on..
Crazy. I'm from BP originally. I didn't give or get anywhere close to that number of gifts. And we did not get any furniture. We put aside some money to be used as a (small) part of a down payment later on instead.

Offline David61

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I don't think those numbers are representative of most people. I may be naive, though. My close family definitely did not spend those numbers on gifts and furnishings.

So what is representative? 50k instead of 75k?

I doubt the average is below 50k even with a takana wedding, once you include the various parties, gifts, clothing for the family, setting the couple up with some clothing/sheitals and furnishing for an apartment.

And that excludes a car or financial support (e.g. for those starting off learning).

Offline Dan

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BP, Monsey & Williamsburg.. mostly yes... its insane whats going on..
Crazy. Happy I live in an alternate universe because that's truly insane.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline David61

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Crazy. Happy I live in an alternate universe because that's truly insane.

Dan - With travel activity on hold. . . any thoughts about a more detailed blog-post with your perspectives on this #TrendingTopic (from the "celebrity/expert on smarter-spending").

Offline Dan

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Dan - With travel activity on hold. . . any thoughts about a more detailed blog-post with your perspectives on this #TrendingTopic (from the "celebrity/expert on smarter-spending").

What do I have to add? People need to live within their means.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline shaulyaakov

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I don't understand all thr money on gifts/clothes etc.

We've been married 4 years, and nearly everything in my apartment was bought second hand or from ikea (a few things from the Raymour and Flanigan outlet).

You could add up the value of everything in ou apartment, and it's less than some of the gift amounts above. Insane.

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I don't understand all thr money on gifts/clothes etc.

We've been married 4 years, and nearly everything in my apartment was bought second hand or from ikea (a few things from the Raymour and Flanigan outlet).

You could add up the value of everything in ou apartment, and it's less than some of the gift amounts above. Insane.
Just take a walk down New Utrecht ave and take a look at the furniture stores, or 13th ave, only the subway screech will remind you that you aren't touring Rodeo Drive.

Offline Chapshnell

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Just take a walk down New Utrecht ave and take a look at the furniture stores, or 13th ave, only the subway screech will remind you that you aren't touring Rodeo Drive.

haha excellent

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I don't understand all thr money on gifts/clothes etc.

We've been married 4 years, and nearly everything in my apartment was bought second hand or from ikea (a few things from the Raymour and Flanigan outlet).

You could add up the value of everything in ou apartment, and it's less than some of the gift amounts above. Insane.

When I got married & I paid (no my parents didn't pay bh & my in laws arent well to do either) we bought furniture in Ikea or Bobs (which we love). There is no need to give parents heart attacks, its supposed to be a zman of simcha!

Offline Kobe Bryant

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A new initiative has gotten off the ground. Its hard to know if it will last, but its nice to see so many people have signed up!

https://simchainitiative.org/
I don't think you can reasonably insist on much less.

I have put some thought into this:

My thoughts are that perhaps it should be about limiting numbers of courses, band sizes, shmorgs and bars, rather than capping invitees. 

The reality is that it is not easy for a prominent individual to limit guests. There may be many employees and acquaintances, aside from neighbors, relatives and associates. And who wants to snub neighbors by only inviting some of the block?

Of course if Rabbonim attend such events it makes it even harder.

Suppose it was about limiting the grandiosity. Rules can include things like a max number of courses, a limit on the shmorg size, no more than a 5-piece band, max 1 singer, and no bars. All this, but no cap on invitees.

It would be more doable and help with affordability and social pressure. And less excusable. A guy says now, look I have a lot of people I must invite. Fair point, but it doesn’t require a bar and a 10-piece band.

It would be nice if the people behind this initiative would consider this.

Im sure the initiative is well intended, but it doesn't actually address the problem. 

I think that we are going about the wrong away, trying to make Takonos doesn't work outside of a few tight-knit sects of the Chasidic community. ( and the few i've seen are absurd)

For the most part those that can't afford it and are making lavish weddings , are the same people that drive an expensive lease while in debt or living paycheck to paycheck, while the neighbors who live below their means ( and possibly have a higher income) buy a 3 YO used car, and have hundreds of thousands of $ in their  401K, IRA and Retirement funds, and are making a nice simple wedding they can afford.

Here are some excerpts that make you wonder, how we've come to such a state of financial ignorance.
"Our family is solidly middle class, with everything that implies. we usually carry credit card debt from month to month"
spent $ 67,000

"And while the business is doing well,we still have some debt to pay off"
" we didn't have any money in savings when our daughter got engaged"
"Still, even if we can afford it, we intend to curb the spending next time"
spent $151,000

"we live from paycheck to paycheck,and i wasn't going above my means to conform to communal standards. and then i did."
spent $94,000

These high cost weddings are a symptom of an overall issue of not living within one's means.

Offline shwarmabob

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these numbers seem totally unrealistic to me.

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Im sure the initiative is well intended, but it doesn't actually address the problem. 

I think that we are going about the wrong away, trying to make Takonos doesn't work outside of a few tight-knit sects of the Chasidic community. ( and the few i've seen are absurd)

For the most part those that can't afford it and are making lavish weddings , are the same people that drive an expensive lease while in debt or living paycheck to paycheck, while the neighbors who live below their means ( and possibly have a higher income) buy a 3 YO used car, and have hundreds of thousands of $ in their  401K, IRA and Retirement funds, and are making a nice simple wedding they can afford.

Here are some excerpts that make you wonder, how we've come to such a state of financial ignorance.
"Our family is solidly middle class, with everything that implies. we usually carry credit card debt from month to month"
spent $ 67,000

"And while the business is doing well,we still have some debt to pay off"
" we didn't have any money in savings when our daughter got engaged"
"Still, even if we can afford it, we intend to curb the spending next time"
spent $151,000

"we live from paycheck to paycheck,and i wasn't going above my means to conform to communal standards. and then i did."
spent $94,000

These high cost weddings are a symptom of an overall issue of not living within one's means.
People who carry credit card debt can buy cheap furniture. People who have no savings can buy a linens and towels for $1,000 instead of $6,500. People who live paycheck to paycheck can furnish their young couple's apartment for less than $17k. These items are simply not what people in these economic class can afford.

Please tell me that these cases are not an accurate representation of what most people spend.


TBH had my post in draft since yesterday, and just read your post.
spot on.

Offline Kobe Bryant

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these numbers seem totally unrealistic to me.

unfortunately, the numbers are definitely out of control. 


Online aygart

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Crazy. Happy I live in an alternate universe because that's truly insane.
I don't think it is as much location as general lifestyle. It is the same thing as needing to have showy jewelry and the latest style clothing.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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So what is representative? 50k instead of 75k?

I doubt the average is below 50k even with a takana wedding, once you include the various parties, gifts, clothing for the family, setting the couple up with some clothing/sheitals and furnishing for an apartment.

And that excludes a car or financial support (e.g. for those starting off learning).

I can't tell you average, but having been involved in setting up a hachnosas kallah gemach I can tell you that in our research it is difficult to get away with under $35k for a girl but someone who is ready to be aggressive can cut that number down significantely as well by cooking their own sheva brachos and the like.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline shaulyaakov

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I can't tell you average, but having been involved in setting up a hachnosas kallah gemach I can tell you that in our research it is difficult to get away with under $35k for a girl but someone who is ready to be aggressive can cut that number down significantely as well by cooking their own sheva brachos and the like.
We should knock it down an rebuild it.

An elaborate shabbos Sheva brachos should not be the rule.

Offline Chapshnell

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We should knock it down an rebuild it.

An elaborate shabbos Sheva brachos should not be the rule.

The only way to cut expenses & make most people happy is that it should be the "norm" to have a simple wedding.
starts by enlightening the children

Offline Kobe Bryant

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I can't tell you average, but having been involved in setting up a hachnosas kallah gemach I can tell you that in our research it is difficult to get away with under $35k for a girl but someone who is ready to be aggressive can cut that number down significantely as well by cooking their own sheva brachos and the like.

Do you mind giving a breakdown of how you got to 35K ?

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Do you mind giving a breakdown of how you got to 35K ?
I would need to look back. Not sure if I have the breakdown.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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We should knock it down an rebuild it.

An elaborate shabbos Sheva brachos should not be the rule.
It does not need to be elaborate to be costly. Any time someone invites siblings and families you can have enough to make it either a lot of work and stress to do yourself or expensive. Yes you can make them small in sioze that only unmarrieds or couples come and cut it down somewhat, but even then it can be a lot of work for someone who just made a chasuna to do on their own and expensive to buy.
Feelings don't care about your facts