POLL: Wedding expenses in the frum Community - BH for simchos? or out of hand?

[CountValentine]

So how does food work?

The venue makes it on the spot.

[aygart]

The venue makes it on the spot.

I think most here are calling that catered.

[Kobe Bryant]

It has gotten so out of hand, but when we say a remedy is needed , im not thinking of "Takanos" but of financial education.

[shaulyaakov]

The venue makes it on the spot.

Most of the Orthodox run halls have on-site catering, and the price they give is bundled. It's only if you get married at a non-Jewish managed hall that you have to worry about a caterer also, due to needing a kosher caterer. Some have affiliations with kosher caterers.

The cost of getting married at a non-Jewish owned hall (hotel etc) is significantly more. It's more common in modern circles as opposed to ultra-Orthodox ones, or outside the NYC area where Jewish owned halls aren't as common.

[CountValentine]

Most of the Orthodox run halls have on-site catering, and the price they give is bundled. It's only if you get married at a non-Jewish managed hall that you have to worry about a caterer also, due to needing a kosher caterer. Some have affiliations with kosher caterers.

The cost of getting married at a non-Jewish owned hall (hotel etc) is significantly more. It's more common in modern circles as opposed to ultra-Orthodox ones, or outside the NYC area where Jewish owned halls aren't as common.

When I say "catered" I mean bringing in food from the outside.
Is this a regular sit-down dinner?

[moko]

When I say "catered" I mean bringing in food from the outside.
Is this a regular sit-down dinner?

F&B and catering are used interchangeably withing the hospitality industry (hotels, event venues, etc). 
At a kosher venue, a full service event is far cheaper than a non kosher venue where a kosher caterer is brought in.
Most hotels do not have in house kosher catering. Even the ones that do, usually do not have a kosher kitchen or enough kosher kitchen space, necessitating a full koshering and the accompanying expenses.
When you book a standard hotel for a kosher event , you end up double paying since the hotel does not discount F&B proportionately. Commonly, you end paying between $40-$80 per head to the hotel and an additional $50-$100 per head to the caterer
 While you can do it cheaper (I believe the Sheraton Framingham, MA is only $30 per head and some caterers who operate there may only charge $40 per head+ free parking) these are fairly common prices.
In BOS, the sole remaining hotel with a kosher kitchen, is the Intercontinental.

[David61]

Mishpacha magazine (Family First) ran a fascinating article in the Pesach edition (April 5, 2020) on the wedding expenses in the frum community in the US, with lots of detailed numbers.

They posted the article online at https://mishpacha.com/at-all-costs/

[fineguy]

A new initiative has gotten off the ground. Its hard to know if it will last, but its nice to see so many people have signed up!

https://simchainitiative.org/

[yelped]

A new initiative has gotten off the ground. Its hard to know if it will last, but its nice to see so many people have signed up!

https://simchainitiative.org/

Max of 250 is not that small.

[fineguy]

Max of 250 is not that small.

I don't think you can reasonably insist on much less.

I have put some thought into this:

My thoughts are that perhaps it should be about limiting numbers of courses, band sizes, shmorgs and bars, rather than capping invitees. 

The reality is that it is not easy for a prominent individual to limit guests. There may be many employees and acquaintances, aside from neighbors, relatives and associates. And who wants to snub neighbors by only inviting some of the block?

Of course if Rabbonim attend such events it makes it even harder.

Suppose it was about limiting the grandiosity. Rules can include things like a max number of courses, a limit on the shmorg size, no more than a 5-piece band, max 1 singer, and no bars. All this, but no cap on invitees.

It would be more doable and help with affordability and social pressure. And less excusable. A guy says now, look I have a lot of people I must invite. Fair point, but it doesn’t require a bar and a 10-piece band.

It would be nice if the people behind this initiative would consider this.

[Yef]

My 2 cents. There is a opportunity now to really change things. Everyone agrees things are completely out of control. So GO BIG!  250 is not going to work, especially since the halls all have minimums.
Make weddings in halls meant for bar mitzvahs/Sheva brachos (or backyards or peoples big houses)50-75person limit, immediate type family and perhaps best friend.    then after Meal wraps up, go to different auditorium, school lunch rooms, etc. sort places just for dancing for everyone else to come. 
Will cost 1/4 price and everyone will have better time and perhaps schools can make some money off of it.
Thoughts?

[Definitions]

It has gotten so out of hand, but when we say a remedy is needed , im not thinking of "Takanos" but of financial education.

Such as what? Who doesn't know that $30k is $30k?

[Yehudaa]

Warning: I'm going to rant here. Definitely my longest DDF post ever. If you don't read it, I don't blame you. If you quote my post, take out all the text so that it doesn't take up a whole page.

I just looked at the numbers in the Mishoacha article, and my one question is: Are the 7 case studies in their article an accurate representation of what people across jewish communities spend on weddings?

If they are an accurate representation, then I think we have a big issue aside from the actual wedding costs in our community. I'm not saying that a 250-person-wedding campaign isn't a good idea, but I think there's a completely separate issue here that needs to be addressed as well.

Looking at 4/7 of these cases:

1. Somone "lives from paycheck to paycheck" and "doesn't have money for extras" but spent $14k on gifts for the kallah and $17k on furniture/housewares/linnen/apartment setup? In addition to this campaign to reduce your $24k share of the actual wedding expenses, maybe we can work on cutting down the $31k of gifts and home furnishings?

2. Someone is "solidly middle class" and "carries credit card debt from month to month", but spent $7k on sheitels, $5.5k on clothing, $7.6k on shabbos sheva brachos and $2.5k on a watch? Reducing these other expenses might yield more savings than a klal-yisroel-wide revolution to trim your $27k share of wedding expenses a bit.

3. You say that "while the business is doing well, we still have some debt to pay off" and you "we didn’t have any money in savings when our daughter got engaged" but you spent $16k on a vort, $8.5k on sheitels, $9k on clothing for the kallah (plus $5k on the gown), $15k on shabbos sheva brachos, $17k on gifts for the chassan (including a $2,350 silver kos), $11k on furniture, $6.5k on linens and towels (!), and $10k on piece of jewlery for the mother? Compared to trimming some of those ~$100k of expenses, I'm not sure that trying to cut down some of your $32k share of the wedding expenses is really such a big deal.

4. You're someone whose finances mean that "it takes a while to save up money for a wedding" but saved up to spend $7k for a chosson watch? $17k between flowers, tablecloths and flooring?

For someone that has lots of money and want to spend it on a comfortable lifestyle, $12k of furniture, $9k of clothing, a $7k watch, $17k of gifts and a $15k shabbos sheva brachos are all nice luxuries to have; but for anyone who's trying to work on cutting down the costs of marrying off their children, those are not necessities, they're luxuries.

People who carry credit card debt can buy cheap furniture. People who have no savings can buy a linens and towels for $1,000 instead of $6,500. People who live paycheck to paycheck can furnish their young couple's apartment for less than $17k. These items are simply not what people in these economic class can afford.

Please tell me that these cases are not an accurate representation of what most people spend.

/end rant

TLDR: If the cases presented by Mishpacha are an accurate representation of what Klal Yisroel spends, then on top of a 250-person wedding campaign I think we have to work on understanding necessities and luxuries.

[CountValentine]

1. Somone "lives from paycheck to paycheck" and "doesn't have money for extras" but spent $14k on gifts for the kallah and $17k on furniture/housewares/linnen/apartment setup? In addition to this campaign to reduce your $24k share of the actual wedding expenses, maybe we can work on cutting down the $31k of gifts and home furnishings?

Someone does not know what living "paycheck to paycheck" means. Completely out of touch with reality.

[aygart]

Nothing in Mishpacha is representative of anything other that what they think will sell subscriptions.

The issue is still a correct one.

[Chapshnell]

There is an option to make a "takana" wedding so the actual night is "affordable". Of course the issue is the gifts, Italian furniture for the small bp apt. (ridiculous), and who knows what else.. Both mechetunim if they are smart and not show offs can get together EARLY & discuss no tit for tats & everything only a must. Of course bederech kavod but the basic necessities in abundance.

[yelped]

I don't think those numbers are representative of most people. I may be naive, though. My close family definitely did not spend those numbers on gifts and furnishings.

[Chapshnell]

I don't think those numbers are representative of most people. I may be naive, though. My close family definitely did not spend those numbers on gifts and furnishings.

BP, Monsey & Williamsburg.. mostly yes... its insane whats going on..

[grodnoking]

BP, Monsey & Williamsburg.. mostly yes... its insane whats going on..

Glad I live in Queens

[aygart]

I don't think those numbers are representative of most people. I may be naive, though. My close family definitely did not spend those numbers on gifts and furnishings.

I did not spend anything near that and felt no pressure at all to do so.