POLL: Wedding expenses in the frum Community - BH for simchos? or out of hand?

[Yehudaa]

Guest count is not the issue.

That was exactly my question. simchainitiative.org seems to think it is.

ETA: I looked at their wording again, and they seem to also only want family and the friends of the chosson & kallah invited, not parents' friends, acquaintances, etc. Maybe their hope is that the number will be a lot lower than 250 for most.

And maybe when they say "250 invited guests" they mean 250 invitations sent out for the meal, with presumably far fewer actually at the meal.

[aygart]

Interesting. Can I ask how many people you had at the wedding? (for the meal)

If your expenses are a more realistic representation of what the average wedding expenses look like and only 12k was spent on the wedding itself, how much is this 250-person-wedding campaign really going to save people? If it cuts 20% off the 12k, that's only a 6% savings on the overall cost of marrying off a child!

I'm not saying that I have a better solution, just wondering how much of a savings people will see from reducing the guest count.

We made an upgraded takana wedding in Fountain Ballroom which is based on 11700+tax for 350 guests. We did spend some more to upgrade a few items but did not include that. It could have been $1000+tax for a standard takana package. I agree that the wedding itself is not where you are going to get much savings for in town weddings. I felt ZERO pressure to do anything more than the upgraded takana wedding with some minor addoitions. None of my friends have done more than that. Almost none of my daughters friends have done more than that. There were some upgrades which my daughter asked me not to do it since she would be embarrassed by it since only the rich and showy people did that.

[aygart]

That was exactly my question. simchainitiative.org seems to think it is.

ETA: I looked at their wording again, and they seem to also only want family and the friends of the chosson & kallah invited, not parents' friends, acquaintances, etc. Maybe their hope is that the number will be a lot lower than 250 for most.

And maybe when they say "250 invited guests" they mean 250 invitations sent out for the meal, with presumably far fewer actually at the meal.

They can be wrong and probably are. I don't think the halls and caterers can get much less that what they are getting for the takana package and be profitable.

[shapsam]

We made an upgraded takana wedding in Fountain Ballroom which is based on 11700+tax for 350 guests. We did spend some more to upgrade a few items but did not include that. It could have been $1000+tax for a standard takana package. I agree that the wedding itself is not where you are going to get much savings for in town weddings. I felt ZERO pressure to do anything more than the upgraded takana wedding with some minor addoitions. None of my friends have done more than that. Almost none of my daughters friends have done more than that. There were some upgrades which my daughter asked me not to do it since she would be embarrassed by it since only the rich and showy people did that.

$11700 is half (split costs) or total?

[aygart]

$11700 is half (split costs) or total?

Kallah side

[Dawie]

They can be wrong and probably are. I don't think the halls and caterers can get much less that what they are getting for the takana package and be profitable.

dont they have minimums anyway

[aygart]

dont they have minimums anyway

Yes for exactly this reason. I guess there can be smaller halls.

[David61]

Agreed. I made a very basic off the cuff calculations of some costs but can be off on a bunch of stuff since I unfortunately went through my father's illness and petira during my daughter's engagement and somewhat lost track of some expenses. I reached 40,0000 very quickly.

 

wedding	12000
vort	$3,000
shaitels	4000
basic furniture	5000
kallah clothing	2000
shabbos sheva brachos	4000
gowns	3000
gifts	1000
Simcha clothing	1500
set up house	5000
	40500

I guess that excludes shadchanus, typically at least 2k.

Perhaps part of the problem, but in some circles it’s become customary to get chosson a watch, shas, talis, talis bags, kittel, and a silver item (e.g menorah or esrog box). It could be hard to get all that for less than 3k even on a tight budget.

I think the problem is about a lack of information (knowing the costs is a start), financial planning (thinking long-term, needs vs wants, understanding the long term costs of debt and the long-term benefits of saving and investing), and pressure the parents feel to keep up with the neighbors (which is why those who can afford to spend lavishly need to help be part of the solution).

[Iz]

I think the problem is about a lack of information (knowing the costs is a start), financial planning (thinking long-term, needs vs wants, understanding the long term costs of debt and the long-term benefits of saving and investing)

https://www.mesila.org/

[aygart]

I guess that excludes shadchanus, typically at least 2k.

Perhaps part of the problem, but in some circles it’s become customary to get chosson a watch, shas, talis, talis bags, kittel, and a silver item (e.g menorah or esrog box). It could be hard to get all that for less than 3k even on a tight budget.

I think the problem is about a lack of information (knowing the costs is a start), financial planning (thinking long-term, needs vs wants, understanding the long term costs of debt and the long-term benefits of saving and investing), and pressure the parents feel to keep up with the neighbors (which is why those who can afford to spend lavishly need to help be part of the solution).

Yes I forgot about that and underestimated gifts.

[moko]

Agreed. I made a very basic off the cuff calculations of some costs but can be off on a bunch of stuff since I unfortunately went through my father's illness and petira during my daughter's engagement and somewhat lost track of some expenses. I reached 40,0000 very quickly.

 

wedding	12000
vort	$3,000
shaitels	4000
basic furniture	5000
kallah clothing	2000
shabbos sheva brachos	4000
gowns	3000
gifts	1000
Simcha clothing	1500
set up house	5000
	40500

What can I say... A lot of these figures seem high.. Not exorbitantly but high nonetheless. It would seem that that almost every person doing a Bais Faiga wedding is spending substantially less.

[moko]

To me, these issues don't seem unique to our community.
I have secular clients crying to me that they can't afford our fees, which are well below industry standard.
They say this while renting an expensive apartment in Cleveland Circle or Back Bay Boston and driving a leased BMW or Mercedes. They tend to have 10s of thousands in CC debt as well.
We live in a society where someone can graduate with hundreds of thousands in student loans with potential for a mediocre job at best. they then need to live in the hottest real estate market and drive a leased late model luxury vehicle.
Dave Ramsey got a lot of bad press on this forum but the truth is much (most?) of our community and the world needs a dose of Dave Ramsey

[Iz]

What can I say... A lot of these figures seem high.. Not exorbitantly but high nonetheless. It would seem that that almost every person doing a Bais Faiga wedding is spending substantially less.

+1 re vort. $3000 for a moderate regular (not fancy) Lakewood vort?

[Sammyonetwo]

We can talk all about this and the plans to switch but the reason for all the fancy weddings and everything else we get nicer the we really need is because of Peer pressure period.

The reason why we have so much peer pressure is because only in the frum community do we have really rich people living next door to someone who is broke and can’t put food on the table they all go to the same schools a lot are friendly with each other.

Having this creates peer pressure that not other community has and even the not wealthy have to live and look like their neighbor who are millionaires.

Till we fix this which will never happen because it shouldn’t the weddings the cars will always stay the same.

People who can afford the real luxuries will not give that up and shouldn’t have to because their neighbor gets peer pressure from it.

My two cents.

[Iz]

Dave Ramsey got a lot of bad press on this forum but the truth is much (most?) of our community and the world needs a dose of Dave Ramsey

Did he get bad press for anything other than his crusade against credit cards for points etc?

[aygart]

What can I say... A lot of these figures seem high.. Not exorbitantly but high nonetheless. It would seem that that almost every person doing a Bais Faiga wedding is spending substantially less.

Yes some may be on the higher end. This came out 25% higher than the the 35000 number I was trying to show. Also some are low and some costs left out as discussed above.

[aygart]

+1 re vort. $3000 for a moderate regular (not fancy) Lakewood vort?

These were very of the top of my head numbers.

[aygart]

To me, these issues don't seem unique to our community.
I have secular clients crying to me that they can't afford our fees, which are well below industry standard.
They say this while renting an expensive apartment in Cleveland Circle or Back Bay Boston and driving a leased BMW or Mercedes. They tend to have 10s of thousands in CC debt as well.
We live in a society where someone can graduate with hundreds of thousands in student loans with potential for a mediocre job at best. they then need to live in the hottest real estate market and drive a leased late model luxury vehicle.
Dave Ramsey got a lot of bad press on this forum but the truth is much (most?) of our community and the world needs a dose of Dave Ramsey

I have told people discussing the points game that it is great until the first time you don't pay a bill in full. If that happens even once then you need to go full save Ramsey

[moko]

Did he get bad press for anything other than his crusade against credit cards for points etc?

He's right about exactly that. "Normal" in this case shouldn't be trying to accumulate credit card points. So he's blown it out of proportion according to some? Sure beets the alternative which is far more common. On this forum which preaches never carry any credit card debt but credit cards are ok, there threads about credit card debt.
Those people should get off this forum and join financial peace university.
end rant

[Iz]

He's right about exactly that. "Normal" in this case shouldn't be trying to accumulate credit card points. So he's blown it out of proportion according to some? Sure beets the alternative which is far more common. On this forum which preaches never carry any credit card debt but credit cards are ok, there threads about credit card debt.
Those people should get off this forum and join financial peace university.
end rant

I am not debating that. I am simply pointing out that afaik, nobody here disagrees with all the rest of it, i.e. live within your means, don't borrow (what you can't afford to pay in full every month), etc.