POLL: Wedding expenses in the frum Community - BH for simchos? or out of hand?

[David61]

Questionable wether that was an endorsement. The letter was nowhere near a recommendation for the guidelines that this “initiative” is proposing.

They are listed in the group's advertisements, and now they are listed at the top of the website at https://simchainitiative.org/

That sure sounds like an endorsement to me.

[Sam Finkelstein]

https://vosizneias.com/2020/05/04/covid-19-era-weddings-a-fathers-perspective/

Good grief. And this is a person who has a good job.

[Ergel]

I don't get it. Why is it the rich people's fault for making a simcha within their means?

[aygart]

I don't get it. Why is it the rich people's fault for making a simcha within their means?

+1000000000 I felt no pressure to make more than a takana wedding. 

[Afrages6]

I don't get it. Why is it the rich people's fault for making a simcha within their means?

It’s a fascinating concept. Somehow it’s someone else’s problem when people spend outside their means. What’s next? People can’t have big houses because others will spend more then they can on their own house?

[David61]

I don't get it. Why is it the rich people's fault for making a simcha within their means?

“Fault” is the wrong word. The question is why should the wealthy care that it’s causing grief and hardship to other families who feel they need to keep up?

The answer is: vahavta l’reacha kamocha. It’s no less a chesed or tzedoko (probably much more of one) than helping them pay for (or giving them loans for) their weddings. It’s also part of kol Yisroel areivim zeh l’zeh.

And don’t dismiss the pressure as easy to overcome, just because you Bh don’t deal with that. Even if one spouse is comfortable with a simple chasunah, the other spouse (or child) might not be. Also people  feel pressured to make a good first impression and start the relationship with their new child-in-law on a positive and generous footing (and generate goodwill with their child who is moving to a greater degree of independence). Moreover many people feel that they are (and indeed they probably are) judged by their wealth (it affects their social standing) within their community (e.g. with regard to shiddduchim of future children).

Finally this is viewed by many as a particularly wasteful/frivolous form of spending. (At least a large house provides many years of benefit and usually appreciates in value over the long term).

This is not different than the takana to limit spending on funerals discussed in the gemoro, for similar reasons.

[Kobe Bryant]

“Fault” is the wrong word. The question is why should the wealthy care that it’s causing grief and hardship to other families who feel they need to keep up?

The answer is: vahavta l’reacha kamocha. It’s no less a chesed or tzedoko (probably much more of one) than helping them pay for (or giving them loans for) their weddings. It’s also part of kol Yisroel areivim zeh l’zeh.

And don’t dismiss the pressure as easy to overcome, just because you Bh don’t deal with that. Even if one spouse is comfortable with a simple chasunah, the other spouse (or child) might not be. Also people  feel pressured to make a good first impression and start the relationship with their new child-in-law on a positive and generous footing (and generate goodwill with their child who is moving to a greater degree of independence). Moreover many people feel that they are (and indeed they probably are) judged by their wealth (it affects their social standing) within their community (e.g. with regard to shiddduchim of future children).

Finally this is viewed by many as a particularly wasteful/frivolous form of spending. (At least a large house provides many years of benefit and usually appreciates in value over the long term).

This is not different than the takana to limit spending on funerals discussed in the gemoro, for similar reasons.

We all have to spend within our means, and if Hashem has blessed someone with wealth and they spend with a healthy ratio on whatever it may be, a house, a car, a vacation, or a wedding, it is their prerogative to do so.
The Wedding issue just magnifies the real issue within American society and our community in particular, where people live beyond their means and don't plan for their financial future, and where we feel entitled to "keep up with the Cohens".
(Granted we have a very unique social structure, where the person living paycheck to paycheck sits next to a Multi Millionaire or Billionaire in Shul or at Daf Yomi Shiur and where their children are friends and share in each others Simchos)
Placing blame on the wealthy among us is refusing to take responsibly for one's lifestyle and financial decisions.

Additionally, IMO the peer pressure to spend on simchos (or houses, or cars, or vacations) beyond one's means is not coming from the extremely wealthy, who we understand are in a different "class", but rather from the others who spend beyond their means and drive up the standard of "middle class" lifestyle.

"Also people  feel pressured to make a good first impression and start the relationship with their new child-in-law on a positive and generous footing"
Is this a reason to spend beyond one's means, to make a "good first impression" by faking it? for what purpose, to perpetuate the cycle?

[Chapshnell]

I am quite shocked to read about rich man vs. poor man. everyone is entitled to make a lavish wedding or not.. here is the problem.. I am going to write from a chasidishe perspective..
When you go buy a streimel & I would imagine a sheitel too there is a "chasan price" & "a streimel price"there is no set price.
I always laugh when the goy before pesach asks if you want a "cleaning" or a Pesach cleaning $$$$$$$".

This is one example (streimel) out of many many instances during a simcha...  The gowns are out of control, the makeup/hairdressers costs are totally out of control..
The furniture expectations by chasidim are out of control, the lavish shabbos sheva brochos are out of control.. If you have the money for it fine.. But even for people with money.. you are still shopping at the same streimel store as the poor man.. there needs to be a joint effort whether by bringing it in from China or I dont know from where to combat these ridiculous costs.

There is much more to say about this..

[aygart]

We all have to spend within our means, and if Hashem has blessed someone with wealth and they spend with a healthy ratio on whatever it may be, a house, a car, a vacation, or a wedding, it is their prerogative to do so.
The Wedding issue just magnifies the real issue within American society and our community in particular, where people live beyond their means and don't plan for their financial future, and where we feel entitled to "keep up with the Cohens".
(Granted we have a very unique social structure, where the person living paycheck to paycheck sits next to a Multi Millionaire or Billionaire in Shul or at Daf Yomi Shiur and where their children are friends and share in each others Simchos)
Placing blame on the wealthy among us is refusing to take responsibly for one's lifestyle and financial decisions.

Additionally, IMO the peer pressure to spend on simchos (or houses, or cars, or vacations) beyond one's means is not coming from the extremely wealthy, who we understand are in a different "class", but rather from the others who spend beyond their means and drive up the standard of "middle class" lifestyle.

"Also people  feel pressured to make a good first impression and start the relationship with their new child-in-law on a positive and generous footing"
Is this a reason to spend beyond one's means, to make a "good first impression" by faking it? for what purpose, to perpetuate the cycle?

Don't leave out the organizations which provide a high standard to people who can't aford it. I know of a family struggling to put food on the table but they were called before Yom Tov to come and get outfits for theior girls from a high end store. Now these girls are going around in the high end outfits and they are the "Joneses" that eveyone "needed" to keep up with.

[Kobe Bryant]

Don't leave out the organizations which provide a high standard to people who can't afford it. I know of a family struggling to put food on the table but they were called before Yom Tov to come and get outfits for their girls from a high end store. Now these girls are going around in the high end outfits and they are the "Joneses" that everyone "need" to keep up with.

Fair point, not familiar with that.

[EliJelly]

Don't leave out the organizations which provide a high standard to people who can't aford it. I know of a family struggling to put food on the table but they were called before Yom Tov to come and get outfits for theior girls from a high end store. Now these girls are going around in the high end outfits and they are the "Joneses" that eveyone "needed" to keep up with.

I don't believe that any organization is providing above the standard outfits, probably the whole town is dressing up like the Joneses and therefor the organizations are nice enough to treat the poor guy with what has become the standard.

[aygart]

I don't believe that any organization is providing above the standard outfits, probably the whole town is dressing up like the Joneses and therefor the organizations are nice enough to treat the poor guy with what has become the standard.

The store provided it.

[EliJelly]

I am quite shocked to read about rich man vs. poor man. everyone is entitled to make a lavish wedding or not.. here is the problem.. I am going to write from a chasidishe perspective..
When you go buy a streimel & I would imagine a sheitel too there is a "chasan price" & "a streimel price"there is no set price.
I always laugh when the goy before pesach asks if you want a "cleaning" or a Pesach cleaning $$$$$$$".

This is one example (streimel) out of many many instances during a simcha...  The gowns are out of control, the makeup/hairdressers costs are totally out of control..
The furniture expectations by chasidim are out of control, the lavish shabbos sheva brochos are out of control.. If you have the money for it fine.. But even for people with money.. you are still shopping at the same streimel store as the poor man.. there needs to be a joint effort whether by bringing it in from China or I dont know from where to combat these ridiculous costs.

There is much more to say about this..

Talking of the shtreimel, the weird thing is now with so many takana chassuna halls, the shtreimel cost is almost as much as the entire chassuna night.

[EliJelly]

The store provided it.

That's not the organization then. Can't blame the individual for doing chesed the way he finds it best.

[etech0]

I don't believe that any organization is providing above the standard outfits, probably the whole town is dressing up like the Joneses and therefor the organizations are nice enough to treat the poor guy with what has become the standard.

Not necessarily from what I've heard

[aygart]

That's not the organization then. Can't blame the individual for doing chesed the way he finds it best.

It is arranged and solicited by the organization.

[EliJelly]

It is arranged and solicited by the organization.

As long they aren't subsidized, they'll probably go to the most generous store owners, although they might be high end.

[aygart]

As long they aren't subsidized, they'll probably go to the most generous store owners, although they might be high end.

So the fancy stuff are only a problem when rich people who can afford it but them but not when poor people get them for free? Which causes more pressure for those who can't afford it?

[etech0]

So the fancy stuff are only a problem when rich people who can afford it but them but not when poor people get them for free? Which causes more pressure for those who can't afford it?

Well if poor kids are already friends with poor kids then this spreads the peer pressure among them. You are right but this can make it worse.

[Kobe Bryant]

So the fancy stuff are only a problem when rich people who can afford it but them but not when poor people get them for free? Which causes more pressure for those who can't afford it?

I would be ROTFL if it wasn't the sad truth.