Topic Wiki

Initiative to lower the standards:   https://simchainitiative.org/

Mishpacha Article link:                     https://mishpacha.com/at-all-costs/
                                                     https://mishpacha.com/at-all-costs-the-conversation-continues-2/

Jewish Pr. Interview W/R Reisman   https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/interviews-and-profiles/over-1300-sign-pledge-to-hold-simpler-weddings-an-interview-with-rav-yisroel-reisman-rosh-yeshiva-of-torah-vodaath/2020/05/13/

Some interesting articles covering the guidelines from similar efforts 20 years ago

https://agudah.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/JO2002-V35-N06.pdf  page 10 article by Prof. Aaron Twerski
https://agudah.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/JO2006-V39-N041.pdf page 43 article by R Aryeh Zev Ginzberg
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/25/us/religion-journal-a-big-wedding-with-a-smaller-bill.html
« Last edited by David61 on May 28, 2020, 06:29:23 PM »

Poll

Wedding expenses in the frum community

Thank G-d for simchas
8 (5.7%)
This has gotten out of hand and a remedy is needed
107 (75.9%)
It's a problem but has always been this way and we'll manage as we have till now
26 (18.4%)

Total Members Voted: 141

Author Topic: POLL: Wedding expenses in the frum Community - BH for simchos? or out of hand?  (Read 31033 times)

Online EliJelly

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So the fancy stuff are only a problem when rich people who can afford it but them but not when poor people get them for free? Which causes more pressure for those who can't afford it?
That would be a sad situation, but it's not the average case with organization subsidized clothing. I still wouldn't ask ANY store to stop providing for free.

Offline Thingywingy

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Seems to me that other than queens this correlates very closely to population

Eta once you combine queens and Kew gardens it fits into place as well.

I didn't calculate exact numbers, just a parsing.
If you don't include chassidim, and limit the population to those families who still have children getting married, I would be surprised if Brooklyn has more than 2 times as many families...Do you have any data on the frum the populations for Brooklyn and Lakewood?
I am sometimes accused of overthinking things. I am still mulling over whether that accusation has merit.

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Talking of the shtreimel, the weird thing is now with so many takana chassuna halls, the shtreimel cost is almost as much as the entire chassuna night.
Dont know too much about shtreimels butvwhat happens when it rains once?
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Offline menachemd1

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Dont know too much about shtreimels butvwhat happens when it rains once?
You have a rain shtreiml that costs almost 2k

Offline Thingywingy

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We all have to spend within our means, and if Hashem has blessed someone with wealth and they spend with a healthy ratio on whatever it may be, a house, a car, a vacation, or a wedding, it is their prerogative to do so. No one here questions whether they have a RIGHT to do so. You have a right not to lend money to your neighbor to make a wedding but we still have a mitzva of chessed.

The Wedding issue just magnifies the real issue within American society and our community in particular, where people live beyond their means and don't plan for their financial future, and where we feel entitled to "keep up with the Cohens".
(Granted we have a very unique social structure, where the person living paycheck to paycheck sits next to a Multi Millionaire or Billionaire in Shul or at Daf Yomi Shiur and where their children are friends and share in each others Simchos)
Placing blame on the wealthy among us is refusing to take responsibly for one's lifestyle and financial decisions. Is this effort worthwhile only if the wealthy are to blame? Again, this is not about whether they have a "right" to make whatever wedding they want. All agree that they have that right.

Additionally, IMO the peer pressure to spend on simchos (or houses, or cars, or vacations) beyond one's means is not coming from the extremely wealthy, who we understand are in a different "class", but rather from the others who spend beyond their means and drive up the standard of "middle class" lifestyle. Assuming that is true (I agree it probably is), how does that affect the appropriateness of encouraging these guidelines?

"Also people  feel pressured to make a good first impression and start the relationship with their new child-in-law on a positive and generous footing"
Is this a reason to spend beyond one's means, to make a "good first impression" by faking it? for what purpose, to perpetuate the cycle?
For what purpose? Do you mean is this an appropriate, justified, prudent justification?? I don't think that it is obvious that it is not. Parents, especially of girls, should do whatever they can to help their children get married. Reputation matters a lot in the current reality. The suggestion that people should ignore that, suggests you are unfamiliar with the huge challenge facing many parents today. But more fundamentally, why is that the criteria? Is the question whether there is a legal obligation to abide by these guidelines, of the sort to be determined by a court of law? Or is the question, should we voluntarily join together as a society to help alleviate a very significant burden on what is perhaps the majority of frum families? I think it is the latter.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 04:57:09 PM by Thingywingy »
I am sometimes accused of overthinking things. I am still mulling over whether that accusation has merit.

Offline yelped

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You have a rain shtreiml that costs almost 2k
Not necessarily. I don't own one. And my regular (only) Shtreimel cost me $1,200. And I didn't get married that long ago. But almost everyone does indeed have 2.

Offline moko

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Not necessarily. I don't own one. And my regular (only) Shtreimel cost me $1,200. And I didn't get married that long ago. But almost everyone does indeed have 2.
wasn't Bingo selling for $500?
Using your g-d given right of stupidity is an option, not a requirement. Please use sparingly.

Offline menachemd1

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Not necessarily. I don't own one. And my regular (only) Shtreimel cost me $1,200. And I didn't get married that long ago. But almost everyone does indeed have 2.
I don't know your background but afaik its only satmer Monroe were the chasanim take a $1,200 shtreiml, all other places are minimum $2,500 just for the regular shtreiml
i

Offline Iz

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I don't know your background but afaik its only satmer Monroe were the chasanim take a $1,200 shtreiml, all other places are minimum $2,500 just for the regular shtreiml
i
הא גופא קשיא

Offline menachemd1

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הא גופא קשיא
isent that the title of this thread ?

Offline lubaby

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I don't know your background but afaik its only satmer Monroe were the chasanim take a $1,200 shtreiml, all other places are minimum $2,500 just for the regular shtreiml
i
Add to the list of "system-wide issues" that need to be dealt with.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

Online yungermanchik

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  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Talking of the shtreimel, the weird thing is now with so many takana chassuna halls, the shtreimel cost is almost as much as the entire chassuna night.
There's a story told of one of the Gerrer Rebbes:
Once the spodik machers raised the prices for spodiks to a price that was too high for many of the chasidim.
The Rebbe called a meeting with the spodik machers to convince them to make their prices more normal. The had all kinds of excuses and "reasons" why they needed to raise the price.
Finally the Rebbe said, "if you don't lower the price, tomorrow I'm putting on a black hat!"
Needless to say, the next day the prices went down!

If only someone would do this nowadays with shtreimels.
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline cmey

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Add to the list of "system-wide issues" that need to be dealt with.

Itís not the prices going up; itís the streimels. What used to be a thin ring of fur when I was a kid has morphed into a mega tall statement piece encroaching on spudik territory. If you create a piece using upwards of 50-100 tails it isnít going to cost the same as a $250 Borsalino. The more the דורות (And the ראש ) are נתקטנו the more the streimlach seem to be נתגדלו !

Offline Iz

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Itís not the prices going up; itís the streimels. What used to be a thin ring of fur when I was a kid has morphed into a mega tall statement piece encroaching on spudik territory. If you create a piece using upwards of 50-100 tails it isnít going to cost the same as a $250 Borsalino.
What do you mean? 
More fur = more Chasidish = more frum = more heilig = more Olam Haba!

Offline lubaby

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Itís not the prices going up; itís the streimels. What used to be a thin ring of fur when I was a kid has morphed into a mega tall statement piece encroaching on spudik territory. If you create a piece using upwards of 50-100 tails it isnít going to cost the same as a $250 Borsalino. The more the דורות (And the ראש ) are נתקטנו the more the streimlach seem to be נתגדלו !
I meant the mindset needs to be changed.. You donít need a $4000+ hat to ďbe a better JewĒ and ďfor God to love you moreĒ.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.