POLL: Wedding expenses in the frum Community - BH for simchos? or out of hand?

[mmgfarb]

+1, as I said here.

Yes, I remember reading your post and agreeing with it at the time. I think another root cause of the problem is less "keeping up with the Joneses" and more a lack of financial literacy in young adults. How many young people getting married have any sort of understanding about how much it really takes to make the kind of money that is being spent on them? Forget about an understanding of savings, retirement, balancing spending vs income, that's all beyond what I'm going to ask of people to understand at this age (not because I think it's not important, I just think it's way beyond where most people are.) How many young people really understand what it "costs" their parents to buy them all the things they feel they "need" or want as they start off their married life? Everyone understands the value of giving to Tomchie Shabbos but how many people understand what their parents have to go through to spend the kind of money that is "expected" of them. I know I'm not the norm for someone of my age and affiliation but I'm not asking for guys to be financially independent, just to have some sort of understanding of what it takes to provide them with what they're asking for as, in reality, nobody really deserves anything. Is it really too much to ask for young adults to feel the weight of what they're asking of other people to provide for them?

[farmbochur]

How about make this a discussion item between parents and shadchanim before dating begins?

If I had a kid in the parsha, I'd be attracted to prospects who were interested in a modest wedding. And not just to save some $$. It's reflective of other positive traits.

[mmgfarb]

I never got why parents are "expected" to cough up so much money for everything, not just weddings.

Let the kids earn it if they want it. There's a huge sense of entitlement out there.

Everyone likes to blame young people for being "entitled" but nobody wants to take responsibility for raising their kids that way.

[Sam Finkelstein]

Everyone likes to blame young people for being "entitled" but nobody wants to take responsibility for raising their kids that way.

It’s a hard balance. We don’t want to deprive our children, either.

[pbf]

I think a big problem is that there are no lines between the wealthy and the poor, so it's very difficult to create boundaries.

[mmgfarb]

It’s a hard balance. We don’t want to deprive our children, either.

Did I say it was easy? Doesn't matter how hard it is (I happen to think it's not as hard as you think,) you still can't blame kids more for feeling entitled to things they were brought up to expect, than you can yourself for bringing them up that way. Why don't we see more people taking personal responsibility for not teaching their kids a damn thing about finances when it comes time to pay for these things? Everyone liked to blame other people for their hardships but we often have a very hard time recognizing where we went wrong to get us to the point we're at. Everyone wants to shelter their kids from feeling deprived but you're not doing your kids any favors by not helping them understand the realities of life.

[Sam Finkelstein]

Did I say it was easy? Doesn't matter how hard it is (I happen to think it's not as hard as you think,) you still can't blame kids more for feeling entitled to things they were brought up to expect, than you can yourself for bringing them up that way. Why don't we see more people taking personal responsibility for not teaching their kids a damn thing about finances when it comes time to pay for these things? Everyone liked to blame other people for their hardships but we often have a very hard time recognizing where we went wrong to get us to the point we're at. Everyone wants to shelter their kids from feeling deprived but you're not doing your kids any favors by not helping them understand the realities of life.

A lot depends on communal norms. Picking a community plays a big role. My OOT family does not suffer from this as much, even though they are still plenty exposed to the wealthy.

[mmgfarb]

I think a big problem is that there are no lines between the wealthy and the poor, so it's very difficult to create boundaries.

Overrated. There doesn't have to be a division between the wealthy and the rest of us, all you need to do is teach your kids to understand the realities of what you are able to afford. Obviously this can be very difficult at the extreme ends but for the majority of people who are middle class, it's not that big a deal. Kids are capable of understanding these concepts, we just don't tend to teach it to them and when we do it tends to be a one-off thing which is hard for kids to handle, it has to be a regular part of your chinuch.

[mmgfarb]

A lot depends on communal norms. Picking a community plays a big role. My OOT family does not suffer from this as much, even though they are still plenty exposed to the wealthy.

Yep, blame it on the community instead of taking personal responsibility to be better. #BLM

[pbf]

Overrated. There doesn't have to be a division between the wealthy and the rest of us, all you need to do is teach your kids to understand the realities of what you are able to afford. Obviously this can be very difficult at the extreme ends but for the majority of people who are middle class, it's not that big a deal. Kids are capable of understanding these concepts, we just don't tend to teach it to them and when we do it tends to be a one-off thing which is hard for kids to handle, it has to be a regular part of your chinuch.

The parents have to understand it first 

[JMHO]

If it would be the norm for girls to only start dating at, say, 21 or 22, then that would be considered young. There would be no younger pot to chose from.
Personally, I had an older sister and only started dating at 22 and it was the best thing. In my mind, it wasn't even an option for me to date before then so there was zero pressure.

I also know that when my brother was in shidduchim, the super young girls were always passed over immediately. My mother just was not interested.

I know many people do not think this way, but it can become more accepted and standard if people work at it.

Yes, I'm acutely aware that single girls have less 'value' but it all depends how you look at it. I don't care what people think and in my workplace (frum environment) I am valued even more because I am not havng babies constantly and leaving because my kids are sick.

Until there's a 'shidduch crisis' and a girl decides to go on the market earlier to have more time/available boys. That's basically what happens now in the litvish world where girls are getting married earlier and earlier, even the end of 12th grade!

[aygart]

What's 100p, $100 per couple? The bar mitzvas in my family were about $6-7k for 40 couples, that includes the hall, caterer, waiters/kitchen staff plus tips, mashgiach fee, party planner, not over the top flowers, no paid music or photographer. I know in Lakewood it can be a little cheaper, but still not what we're talking about for $4500.

Get rid of the party planner which knocks off some other expenses too. The flowers are silk owned by the hall. Add in the same economics of scale which allow for an affair triple the size below 10000 and it makes sense.

[pbf]

Until there's a 'shidduch crisis' and a girl decides to go on the market earlier to have more time/available boys. That's basically what happens now in the litvish world where girls are getting married earlier and earlier, even the end of 12th grade!

I think learning the basics of emunah and setting a solid groundwork would eliminate Shidduch Crisis Fears (obviously another discussion...)

I am single and have a large group of single friends, so call me crazy, but I don't believe in the Shidduch Crisis.

[Sam Finkelstein]

Yep, blame it on the community instead of taking personal responsibility to be better. #BLM

Excuse me. If every elementary kid on the block was whizzing by on their hoverboard all day, all your sons high-school classmates had their own cars, and all your daughter’s friends had lavish weddings, what would you tell your kid? I’d say better to live around people who share your values.

This is on the deprived children front, not the keeping up with the Joneses front.

(Edited to correct misspelling)

[Chapshnell]

I think learning the basics of emunah and setting a solid groundwork would eliminate Shidduch Crisis Fears (obviously another discussion...)

I am single and have a large group of single friends, so call me crazy, but I don't believe in the Shidduch Crisis.

Dont confuse emunah & pushing away a shidduch. Its a long discussion & not for this thread.. But I wish you mazel & hatzlocha

[pbf]

Dont confuse emunah & pushing away a shidduch. Its a long discussion & not for this thread.. But I wish you mazel & hatzlocha

100% but the general fear mongering attitude that someone else will 'steal' your shidduch is ridiculous.

[Dan]

IMHO, the trade-off of waiting until a girl is older and on financial stable ground is that she'll be pickier about who she'll marry.

Truthfully, most frum people with the same goals can make marriage work and learn to love each other, but the older you are and the more accomplished you are, the pickier you get...for better or for worse.

[pbf]

IMHO, the trade-off of waiting until a girl is older and on financial stable ground is that she'll be pickier about who she'll marry.

Truthfully, most frum people with the same goals can make marriage work and learn to love each other, but the older you are and the more accomplished you are, the pickier you get...for better or for worse.

People who got married young love to say that older singles are picky.

Of course there are some that will be picky, but it's really really generally not true.

[mmgfarb]

Excuse me. If every elementary kid on the block was whizzing by on their hoverboard all day, all your sons high-school classmates had their own cars, and all your daughter’s friends had lavish weddings, what would you tell your kid? I’d say better to live around people who share your values.

This is on the deprived children front, not the keeping up with the Joneses front.

(Edited to correct misspelling)

If you live a community where every single one of your son's high-school classmates had their own car and you can't afford one, then the problem isn't that you live in town, it's that you live in a community where the standard income is way higher than yours and you're the problem, not them. You can't blame people for living according to the standards which they can afford and is normal for their community. If you want to say that most of those people who bought their son a car for high school couldn't really afford it and you're the only one who stuck to his guns and didn't buy what you couldn't afford, then sure, I'll agree with you but something tells me that's not the case and even if it is in your community, I don't think that's the norm, even in town. If I'm wrong on that then we really are screwed and I give up now.

[Jellybelly]

How about make this a discussion item between parents and shadchanim before dating begins?

If I had a kid in the parsha, I'd be attracted to prospects who were interested in a modest wedding. And not just to save some $$. It's reflective of other positive traits.

That’s possible but not necessarily true. Many of these people that spend more than they can afford are very giving by nature and are always helping people. And many people that try to be frugal and cheap don’t necessarily have many positive traits.
I’m only trying to say, don’t generalize.