POLL: Wedding expenses in the frum Community - BH for simchos? or out of hand?

[Sam Finkelstein]

As long as we're on the topic, one of my biggest pet peeves was being dumped after one date.

First girl I dated, I flew out to LA, had a one date, she wasn't interested in dating again.

As a 23 year old introvert with 5 brothers, making small talk with a girl on a first date, let alone connecting with her, was hardly going to be an area I excelled at.

I was angry at a system like that, it seemed so senseless over a date where research had been done, money had been spent, and didn't go horribly bad.

My wife was the 8th girl I dated, and by then I had some idea what I was doing, though I was the first person she dated. I learned much later that she wouldn't have gone out on a 2nd date had I not flown to KC. But we dated for 2 weeks after that, got engaged, and the rest is history.

Point being, have patience, even if it's not the best date at first

Anyway, perhaps this should be a separate thread...

Nice that you flew out for the first date. I did that too because I felt very strongly about it, despite being very discouraged by others. Needless to say, my in-laws were rather impressed, as it’s unheard of in their circles for the guy to fly in for the first date.

[mmgfarb]

As long as we're on the topic, one of my biggest pet peeves was being dumped after one date.

First girl I dated, I flew out to LA, had a one date, she wasn't interested in dating again.

As a 23 year old introvert with 5 brothers, making small talk with a girl on a first date, let alone connecting with her, was hardly going to be an area I excelled at.

I was angry at a system like that, it seemed so senseless over a date where research had been done, money had been spent, and didn't go horribly bad.

My wife was the 8th girl I dated, and by then I had some idea what I was doing, though I was the first person she dated. I learned much later that she wouldn't have gone out on a 2nd date had I not flown to KC. But we dated for 2 weeks after that, got engaged, and the rest is history.

Point being, have patience, even if it's not the best date at first

Anyway, perhaps this should be a separate thread...

I think at least now it's expected to commit to at least 2 dates when one party has to travel unless there's a mutual agreement that both parties don't feel it going anywhere.

[Dan]

Nice that you flew out for the first date. I did that too because I felt very strongly about it, despite being very discouraged by others. Needless to say, my in-laws were rather impressed, as it’s unheard of in their circles for the guy to fly in for the first date.

Common among Chabad circles, especially if you live OOT.
Though I realized after dating a few NY/LA girls that I should stick with dating OOT girls going forward. The lifestyle and hashkafic differences seemed to big to overcome.

[Dan]

I think at least now it's expected to commit to at least 2 dates when one party has to travel unless there's a mutual agreement that both parties don't feel it going anywhere.

That's great! At least something has improved in the past decade.

[pbf]

As long as we're on the topic, one of my biggest pet peeves was being dumped after one date.

First girl I dated, I flew out to LA, had a one date, she wasn't interested in dating again.

As a 23 year old introvert with 5 brothers, making small talk with a girl on a first date, let alone connecting with her, was hardly going to be an area I excelled at.

I was angry at a system like that, it seemed so senseless over a date where research had been done, money had been spent, and didn't go horribly bad.

My wife was the 8th girl I dated, and by then I had some idea what I was doing, though I was the first person she dated. I learned much later that she wouldn't have gone out on a 2nd date had I not flown to KC. But we dated for 2 weeks after that, got engaged, and the rest is history.

Point being, have patience, even if it's not the best date at first

Anyway, perhaps this should be a separate thread...

I don't have much experience with OOT dating, but I believe it's standard to go out at least twice if one party has flown in for the date.
For myself, I try to go out twice unless it's glaring, but I have always found that nothing has changed and the reason I ultimately say no was there from the first date.

[mmgfarb]

Impossible is a strong word, but yes, it makes it hard. And you run the risk of kids who feel deprived.

If this is how you really feel then I feel sorry for you.

[lubaby]

Nice that you flew out for the first date. I did that too because I felt very strongly about it, despite being very discouraged by others. Needless to say, my in-laws were rather impressed, as it’s unheard of in their circles for the guy to fly in for the first date.

In the DDF circles, doing OOT dating is a great excuse to burn some miles / take an impromptu vacation

[yelped]

I like the way this thread is developing. We are tackling the essence of the issues here.

Now let's see how much of this we can transmit to the wider community.

I have some thoughts to add, I'll try to get to it later.

[mmgfarb]

Now let's see how much of this we can transmit to the wider community.

0.001%

[Chapshnell]

Most people I've spoken with admit to getting pickier the longer they date, as they realize what exactly they're looking for and the things that bother them.

The problem is that those things may not exist and/or may not be necessary for a happy marriage.

A million %. In addition... the older a single gets the harder if its not amazing.... is the fact a partner rocks the schedule the single has

[S209]

If you live a community where every single one of your son's high-school classmates had their own car and you can't afford one, then the problem isn't that you live in town, it's that you live in a community where the standard income is way higher than yours and you're the problem, not them. You can't blame people for living according to the standards which they can afford and is normal for their community. If you want to say that most of those people who bought their son a car for high school couldn't really afford it and you're the only one who stuck to his guns and didn't buy what you couldn't afford, then sure, I'll agree with you but something tells me that's not the case and even if it is in your community, I don't think that's the norm, even in town. If I'm wrong on that then we really are screwed and I give up now.

I really do believe that a majority of people in my community make weddings that they cannot afford because other people they consider their financial peers make similar weddings they cannot afford.

[JMHO]

I really do believe that a majority of people in my community make weddings that they cannot afford because other people they consider their financial peers make similar weddings they cannot afford.

To quote R' Dovid Orlofsky, "Everyone does what everyone does, because that's what everyone does"!

[mmgfarb]

I really do believe that a majority of people in my community make weddings that they cannot afford because other people they consider their financial peers make similar weddings they cannot afford.

Have you been reading my posts in this thread? My whole point is that that's not the only root cause of the problem.

[Shmulie]

As long as we're on the topic, one of my biggest pet peeves was being dumped after one date.

First girl I dated, I flew out to LA, had a one date, she wasn't interested in dating again.

As a 23 year old introvert with 5 brothers, making small talk with a girl on a first date, let alone connecting with her, was hardly going to be an area I excelled at.

I was angry at a system like that, it seemed so senseless over a date where research had been done, money had been spent, and didn't go horribly bad.

 
This kind of thing is one of my biggest fears in starting to date.

[Definitions]

I think another root cause of the problem is less "keeping up with the Joneses" and more a lack of financial literacy in young adults. How many young people getting married have any sort of understanding about how much it really takes to make the kind of money that is being spent on them?...

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned in a different thread a while ago. (Maybe it was should yeshivas teach financial literacy).
 I don't understand this whole thing about teaching financial literacy. Which person with any sense in their head doesn't understand that a dollar is a dollar. There's nothing to teach or understand.

And I'm not understanding the the idea that it's (also) the parents fault for raising kids a certain way that they feel entitled. There's no feeling of entitlement here, there's a feeling of embarrassment if it's not done.

[mmgfarb]

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned in a different thread a while ago. (Maybe it was should yeshivas teach financial literacy).
 I don't understand this whole thing about teaching financial literacy. Which person with any sense in their head doesn't understand that a dollar is a dollar. There's nothing to teach or understand.

And I'm not understanding the the idea that it's (also) the parents fault for raising kids a certain way that they feel entitled. There's no feeling of entitlement here, there's a feeling of embarrassment if it's not done.

The fact that you don't understand is proof positive that people don't actually understand finances.

[Definitions]

The fact that you don't understand is proof positive that people don't actually understand finances.

Shvach

[mmgfarb]

Shvach

Ok, I was being generous. Either you don't understand finances or you don't understand people, take your pick.

[Definitions]

Ok, I was being generous. Either you don't understand finances or you don't understand people, take your pick.

You're not giving a clear answer.

I'll answer it for you (or at least try to). All teaching "financial literacy" does is create a support group to counter the social pressure. It's not any sort of new understanding of finances that fixes the problem, because there isn't anything taught.

[mmgfarb]

You're not giving a clear answer.

I'll answer it for you (or at least try to). All teaching "financial literacy" does is create a support group to counter the social pressure. It's not any sort of new understanding of finances that fixes the problem, because there isn't anything taught.

First off, if you think that people in our community, especially children and young adults, have enough of an understanding of money, finances, savings, and what it takes to make enough money to pay for the things they expect, then I think you are either an idiot or just woefully unaware of how people actually live.
Second of all, I wasn't advocating for financial literacy courses, that's a stupid idea that will teach a few guys in more modern yeshivos a little bit more about finances, that doesn't really solve anything. If you actually read all my posts from today you would have seen that I was saying that parents don't do enough of a job giving their kids an understanding of what it actually costs them to pay for the things they are coming to take for granted. And if you think there isn't a sense of entitlement among young people in our community, especially when it comes to paying for them to get married and start a life together, then I refer you back to paragraph one.