Author Topic: The science of COVID-19  (Read 49262 times)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #360 on: July 09, 2020, 01:15:49 PM »

OK. While death is a definite, measurable negative consequence, as @chevron pointed out, that is turning out to be much less of an outcome. Long-term physical damage, we will only know about long-term. Mental, emotional, and financial damage as a result of the lockdown - by far more prevalent than serious COVID-19 cases are.

Why don't you take a poll and see how many households that have had COVID-19 symptoms have any DEFINITE, MEASURABLE negative consequences, and how many have such consequences as a result of the lockdown?

I can't figure out why you insist on using lockdowns interchangeably with "Using a mask and being cautious" when you are well aware this is not the case. I have come to expect much more intellectual honesty from you than this, but that seems to have disappeared as soon as the discussion is about covid.

As a total aside, I personally know a bunch of people who are experiencing lingering effects which are affecting their daily lives.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4255
  • Total likes: 812
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #361 on: July 09, 2020, 01:26:04 PM »
I can't figure out why you insist on using lockdowns interchangeably with "Using a mask and being cautious" when you are well aware this is not the case. I have come to expect much more intellectual honesty from you than this, but that seems to have disappeared as soon as the discussion is about covid.
in my experience, the loudest protestations against masks and precautions, especially protesting mocking being concerned for the discomfort of those who do maintain those protections, usually comes from the people who are themselves feeling the most guilty about their own lack of precaution. the guy heckling your mask is th guy who himself didn't get it yet either

(or maybe he did, but he's well informed, on the cutting edge of DDF, and has started worrying about reinfection)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 01:37:27 PM by gozalim »

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #362 on: July 09, 2020, 01:28:45 PM »

OK. While death is a definite, measurable negative consequence, as @chevron pointed out, that is turning out to be much less of an outcome. Long-term physical damage, we will only know about long-term. Mental, emotional, and financial damage as a result of the lockdown - by far more prevalent than serious COVID-19 cases are.

Why don't you take a poll and see how many households that have had COVID-19 symptoms have any DEFINITE, MEASURABLE negative consequences, and how many have such consequences as a result of the lockdown?
I’m not sure if you are just being thick or being deliberately obtuse by presenting a false dichotomy. There are no adverse impacts of being cautious, including wearing masks, switching more venues to outdoors, lowering capacity and crowding at events and services, and being mindful of distancing and outside contact (which does not equal lockdown!). There will definitely be adverse outcomes if a bunch of people contract COVID (some will die, some will be sick for a little, and some will have lingering effects).
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5054
  • Total likes: 6390
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #363 on: July 09, 2020, 02:30:41 PM »
This is also how the walking dead started so I don't know..

Dude, never change. You're awesome.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #364 on: July 09, 2020, 02:47:22 PM »
I can't figure out why you insist on using lockdowns interchangeably with "Using a mask and being cautious" when you are well aware this is not the case. I have come to expect much more intellectual honesty from you than this, but that seems to have disappeared as soon as the discussion is about covid.

As a total aside, I personally know a bunch of people who are experiencing lingering effects which are affecting their daily lives.

Did I?

I responded directly to:
Also while hospitals are filling up, I don't see bh a heavy death rate.

This gives way to what many are thinking, it's invitable, why stay locked up?

They are right that it's not as deadly, I don't think the virus changed, I think treatment is better, less intubation, drugs that work etc

and highlighted "why stay locked up". How in the world would you consider this being interchanged with using masks?

I’m not sure if you are just being thick or being deliberately obtuse by presenting a false dichotomy. There are no adverse impacts of being cautious, including wearing masks, switching more venues to outdoors, lowering capacity and crowding at events and services, and being mindful of distancing and outside contact (which does not equal lockdown!). There will definitely be adverse outcomes if a bunch of people contract COVID (some will die, some will be sick for a little, and some will have lingering effects).

Here again, did I say anything against "being cautious, including wearing masks, switching more venues to outdoors, lowering capacity and crowding at events and services, and being mindful of distancing and outside contact (which does not equal lockdown!)"?  I was specifically responding to "why stay locked up? They are right that it's not as deadly, I don't think the virus changed, I think treatment is better".

You might be conflating what I'm saying here with my responses to @gozalim and @Lurker about the reality of 770. Just as @Yard sale said about Lakewood, I'm saying about 770. I'm being realistic. I know what can and cannot work, and I know where I cannot change things (believe me, if I could change things in 770, there are quite a few things I would change). I have learned to pick my battles. There are some communal battles which I took upon myself singlehandedly, I can name one where my mission was accomplished (though I wish it would have a broader effect), and then there's yet another where it wasn't my battle, but I believe my actions had a significant contribution, that being said - I attempted to raise a totally different angle to that one, but my voice got crowded out.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #365 on: July 09, 2020, 03:24:00 PM »
Did I?

I responded directly to:
and highlighted "why stay locked up". How in the world would you consider this being interchanged with using masks?


That is not what I replied to. After you replied to @chevron , @S209 did a FTFY comparing COVID to "wearing a mask and being cautious" to which you replied by going right back to lockdowns. That is what I replied to, and this isn't nearly the first time you've done that.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #366 on: July 09, 2020, 03:49:20 PM »
That is not what I replied to. After you replied to @chevron , @S209 did a FTFY comparing COVID to "wearing a mask and being cautious" to which you replied by going right back to lockdowns. That is what I replied to, and this isn't nearly the first time you've done that.

Well, now that you point that out, I actually went back and read what @S209 wrote. You have to forgive me for reading this on a desktop where the font appears so small, that I don't always read everything. Maybe @S209 should be taught how to apply FT to posts, so that all of his modifications are noticed (I only noticed the reference to death and long term physical damage) by properly highlighting changes and additions. Unfortunately, the pair of glasses that I ordered hoping to get better office use out of them didn't work out for that, and are now my davening glasses. When I read on mobile it's less of an issue.

So to you, @Dan and others concerned about my responses seeming different, הריני מוסר מודעה: this isn't because of COVID-19, I need a (few) new pair(s) of glasses.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #367 on: July 09, 2020, 04:01:27 PM »
Well, now that you point that out, I actually went back and read what @S209 wrote. You have to forgive me for reading this on a desktop where the font appears so small, that I don't always read everything. Maybe @S209 should be taught how to apply FT to posts, so that all of his modifications are noticed (I only noticed the reference to death and long term physical damage) by properly highlighting changes and additions. Unfortunately, the pair of glasses that I ordered hoping to get better office use out of them didn't work out for that, and are now my davening glasses. When I read on mobile it's less of an issue.

So to you, @Dan and others concerned about my responses seeming different, הריני מוסר מודעה: this isn't because of COVID-19, I need a (few) new pair(s) of glasses.
Stop wearing a mask and you won’t have any issues >:(
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #368 on: July 09, 2020, 04:04:31 PM »
Stop wearing a mask and you won’t have any issues >:(

ALOL. If only....
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2552
  • Total likes: 543
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #369 on: July 09, 2020, 04:06:06 PM »

OK. While death is a definite, measurable negative consequence, as @chevron pointed out, that is turning out to be much less of an outcome. Long-term physical damage, we will only know about in the long-term. Mental, emotional, and financial damage as a result of the lockdown - by far more prevalent than serious COVID-19 cases are.

Why don't you take a poll and see how many households that have had COVID-19 symptoms have any DEFINITE, MEASURABLE negative consequences, and how many have such consequences as a result of the lockdown?

The problem is there's just really is so much you can do You can't keep people locked up until they come out with a vaccine which could take 6 months.


Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #370 on: July 09, 2020, 04:10:41 PM »
The problem is there's just really is so much you can do You can't keep people locked up until they come out with a vaccine which could take 6 months.

Where's the hamster wheel....

Exactly what I've been saying (except for the 6 months idea, as I think it would be longer and not 100% effective). The restrictions were too harsh and not well thought out, and now they are "backfiring". I understand the initial panic when it seemed like a near death sentence, but now that doctors have learned better treatment modalities, and the restrictions have been in place for so long, a holistic approach needs to be taken in putting restrictions in place. That is not something that will happen with politicians calling the shots.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2552
  • Total likes: 543
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #371 on: July 09, 2020, 04:11:02 PM »
If people wear masks and masks are effective at slowing the spread then that's good .

Better treatment, drugs, less intubation.

So now you have less people spending less time in the hospital. Less use of ventilator etc.

people would be better off not getting the virus given the fact that some people are going to have long-term health issues.

I don't know if I got it? I was in California in February.

And you have to remember that early on we thought people who were wearing masks were silly and that is because the CDC and the WHO did not come out saying this was airborne It was all about not touching your face and all about sanitizing your hands etc.

I actually very early on realized the effect of droplets and viral load.

But tachlis, people can't survive locked up forever.

Yes I do have friends who are spending the time out on the private houses and the private boats

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15787
  • Total likes: 7316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #372 on: July 09, 2020, 04:11:46 PM »
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2552
  • Total likes: 543
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #373 on: July 09, 2020, 04:16:16 PM »
Where's the hamster wheel....

Exactly what I've been saying (except for the 6 months idea, as I think it would be longer and not 100% effective). The restrictions were too harsh and not well thought out, and now they are "backfiring". I understand the initial panic when it seemed like a near death sentence, but now that doctors have learned better treatment modalities, and the restrictions have been in place for so long, a holistic approach needs to be taken in putting restrictions in place. That is not something that will happen with politicians calling the shots.

It was a death sentence when hospitals were overloaded It was a death sentence at the beginning when they didn't have good treatment So yeah the initial lockdown was to stop this.

Nyc got a taste. I'm not panicking here. I wear a mask, avoid others

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #374 on: July 09, 2020, 05:10:16 PM »

And you have to remember that early on we thought people who were wearing masks were silly and that is because the CDC and the WHO did not come out saying this was airborne It was all about not touching your face and all about sanitizing your hands etc.


-1 The reason they were saying not to wear masks is because they LIED.
https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-directive-coronavirus
Quote
So, why weren't we told to wear masks in the beginning?

"Well, the reason for that is that we were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply. And we wanted to make sure that the people namely, the health care workers, who were brave enough to put themselves in a harm way, to take care of people who you know were infected with the coronavirus and the danger of them getting infected."
https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1272519398054670336
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 3999
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #375 on: July 09, 2020, 10:46:11 PM »
-1 The reason they were saying not to wear masks is because they LIED.
https://www.thestreet.com/video/dr-fauci-masks-changing-directive-coronavirushttps://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1272519398054670336

Even the explanation was a lie. Lying about masks wasn’t to increase the amount of masks available, as there simply was nothing available. Lying about the usefulness of masks was a ploy to keep citizens from noticing how woefully unprepared the US was with months to get ready.
Visibly Jewish

Offline Mikes@Micro

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 994
  • Total likes: 328
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #376 on: July 09, 2020, 11:45:50 PM »
Even the explanation was a lie. Lying about masks wasn’t to increase the amount of masks available, as there simply was nothing available. Lying about the usefulness of masks was a ploy to keep citizens from noticing how woefully unprepared the US was with months to get ready.
It's a lie to say there were no masks. Very easy to source.

I spoke to many wholesalers /importers who had no trouble getting masks to the US in days. The problem was they had no way to sell them.
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 3999
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #377 on: July 10, 2020, 12:45:56 AM »
It's a lie to say there were no masks. Very easy to source.

I spoke to many wholesalers /importers who had no trouble getting masks to the US in days. The problem was they had no way to sell them.

Sounds like you're talking about mid-May, not February-March when the anti-mask guidance was released by the CDC. I can tell you for a fact that even in February N95 masks were nearly impossible to find. From mid-February, they were not available in any stores (I went to many), I also checked with over 100 major distributors and only found one that had a few pieces left. Also, you're not talking about N95 masks, no one was importing legit N95 masks from overseas. N95 masks are mostly made in the US. And even 3 plys, it's laughable to claim that people were importing them within days. Anyone that imported them (including myself) knows how crazy the delays were. And yes those were in plentiful supply by early May IIRC, but that's not proper PPE for health professionals.
Visibly Jewish

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5054
  • Total likes: 6390
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: The science of COVID-19
« Reply #379 on: July 13, 2020, 04:56:04 PM »
A whole bunch of articles linked in this twitter thread.

https://twitter.com/hussmanjp/status/1282771540770201600
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan