Author Topic: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison  (Read 71504 times)

Offline Ergel

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2020, 10:01:29 AM »
Nope, dead serious. You all keep throwing around the term "herd immunity" regarding Covid-19. I want to know what you all think herd immunity is.
Herd immunity is when a certain number of people develop immunity to a virus (either through vaccination or by being previously infected) and as a result the virus will not spread even if there are some infected people circulating in society
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2020, 10:05:08 AM »
It’s a sacrifice they’re apparently willing to make. Sacrifice a (relative) few so the rest of us can go on with our lives. Frum DDFers have made this argument, so it doesn’t surprise me one bit coming from a progressive country like Sweden.
The argument is that lives are also lost indirectly from prolonged lockdowns.

What everybody neglects to mention is that there is no evidence at all of any immunity. It's only an assumption.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2020, 10:11:59 AM »
The argument is that lives are also lost indirectly from prolonged lockdowns.

Even with an endless amount of data there are too many variables to accurately quantify that. At the end of the day Sweden’s policy can be narrowly interpreted as disregard for an increase in the death toll, and the point is that there’s a threshold to policymakers tolerance of that, and that threshold is apparently higher in Sweden.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2020, 10:19:07 AM »
Herd immunity is when a certain number of people develop immunity to a virus (either through vaccination or by being previously infected) and as a result the virus will not spread even if there are some infected people circulating in society

A) We don't know that there's any immunity from this virus. We don't know anything about re-infection. We don't know the long-term effects of having had this virus. This thing is a few months old and like nothing we've seen before. To assume herd immunity would apply here is playing roulette with billions of people with completely unquantified risks.

B) The herd immunity theory is generally applied to vaccinating the masses. When you give a vaccine, you're allowing each body to build up anti-bodies to that illness, thereby lowering the chance of that person contracting the illness. The more people with lower risk, the less that illness will be found in society, thereby lowering the risk of massive outbreaks. However, we give a vaccine, not the full illness itself. Vaccines are calculated risks, introducing a small enough dose for the body to create anti-bodies without exposing it to the full blown illness. Giving people the illness versus the vaccine would render herd immunity pointless, as everyone would get exposed to the full risks of each illness we're trying to prevent. Giving everyone Covid-19 doesn't get you herd immunity, just a pandemic with all the full blown repercussions.

So now... why is applying the herd immunity theory a good idea for Covid-19?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2020, 10:33:00 AM »
I'm not sure that's the argument. Isn't the argument that there is a certain threshold for shutting down society - I think everyone agrees to that. If we lockdown we'll have less deaths from flu and car accidents, right? If the death rate of this virus was .001%, no one would be advocating for a shutdown, right? (It would mean 3300 deaths in the US). If Sweden ends up not upending society and 3000 deaths, did they make the wrong decision? I'm not sure it's a question of having a higher value of life. Lockdowns have impacts on people's wellbeing as well. What is the shortened life expectancy if you gain 20 pounds? What about the emotional toll this takes on families. If we have an extra 500 gitin because of this, does that not mean something? What about if 50000 people lose their homes because they lost their livelihood? What about if we have an extra 5000 suicides? What if we close down schools for multiple years? I don't think it's as simple as whether or not you value life.

What about the things we don't know, like long-term effects? Does this make you more susceptible to the flu every year going forward? Does it cause impotence? Higher risk for blood clots? Does it make the common cold more deadly?

No one is advocating shutting down society until the end of time. But to lockdown everyone for a few months until there is a little more scientific knowledge about what this thing is and what it can do before exposing everyone to unknown effects seems like a prudent approach.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2020, 10:54:11 AM »
There is always a possibility of things not leading where the data says it should it off things changing. The only way to make a good decision is based on the data known at the time. If there is something which later tells you otherwise it was beyond human ability to account for that.
This is the main point I was making about using available empirical data.

Some people/countries are bandying about herd immunity like it’s a legitimate option that makes sense to act upon. Some countries did that early and then backed off (UK), Sweden presumably has a similar theory.

Here’s the thing. Herd immunity to corona is a theory, not an assumption. There are aspects to corona which are very different that other viruses we’ve seen, and it’s not fully understood. If herd immunity turns out to work, it will have been a lucky guess (at great sacrifice and even more potential sacrifice) at best. If it doesn’t, well then we are continuing to find solutions as usual. But for the people/countries that made that assumption, they can’t say “Well we assumed this and this would happen”.. there is zero evidence of it, so how can you act upon such a theory?

It’s pure negligence, plain and simple.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2020, 11:05:13 AM »
Giving people the illness versus the vaccine would render herd immunity pointless, as everyone would get exposed to the full risks of each illness we're trying to prevent. Giving everyone Covid-19 doesn't get you herd immunity, just a pandemic with all the full blown repercussions.

So now... why is applying the herd immunity theory a good idea for Covid-19?
Maybe your assumptions are wrong? 
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2020, 11:06:15 AM »
Maybe your assumptions are wrong?
Maybe, but is there evidence of that? Or is it a theory that some people are justifying Russian roulette with?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2020, 11:09:49 AM »
Maybe, but is there evidence of that? Or is it a theory that some people are justifying Russian roulette with?
We know for a fact that many are infected and show no signs or only mild symptoms. There is strong belief among medical experts they build up some immunity. How much only time will tell.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2020, 11:13:46 AM »
I think the whole premise is faulty here. When you are dealing with numbers so minuscule (a potential .01% shift in the death rate) there are so many factors that come into play that can result in a much larger impact on those numbers both good or bad that it makes little sense to plan policy hyper focused  on one set of numbers.

Harsh social distancing has its own undeniable impacts. Increase in obesity, sedentary lifestyle, suicide (hotlines are currently flooded in the United States). People skipping preventive care, well visits and necessary dental work etc. On the other hand there are far less work accidents and automobile deaths. Any one of these factors on its own could potential he have a larger than .01% impact. (Who is going to quantify the folks skipping their skin cancer screening who end up with melanoma etc. etc.)

Then there are the impacts that this is likely to have down the road.  Countries that go into a severe recession because of the shutdown of their economies , (and economists agree and even those that start re-opening are going to face severe financial difficulties and a long road to financial recovery) especially Sweden and Denmark that have nationalized healthcare are going to be facing massive budget shortfalls and cutbacks. What kind of impact do you think that is going to have on their healthcare system. They are going to further ration expensive procedures and diagnostic tests like mammograms and CAT scans.  Research and development will be slashed. Expensive cutting edge medical equipment purchases will be put off. And on and on. These are likely to have major impacts on the mortality rate going forward, especially in those categories that will be the first to see healthcare rationed further than it already is in a single payer system such as the elderly and terminally ill.

So it’s really kind of shortsighted to focus on just one tiny aspect, and one tiny number. Much of this is probably applicable to New York and New Jersey as well, although to a lesser degree since they have a private payer healthcare system. Nevertheless, they are negative impacts that will likely never be quantified.

 There are so many moving parts here in the macro picture that it’s really hard to make a snap judgment that New York and New Jersey all doing the right thing and the Southern states are the ones killing people. That Denmark is right and  Sweden is being reckless. There’s just so much more to the picture than that.


« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 11:19:16 AM by Yard sale »

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2020, 11:35:57 AM »
Maybe your assumptions are wrong?

You quoted a section of my answer that I'm most confident in, but I'm going to assume your question was on the entire post.

Here's one thing I know. Every day, multiple times a day, we find out something new about this virus. The virus lives longer in the eyes than the nasal passage, the virus lives in testicles, the virus (or some treatments?) causes blood clots, the virus affects children, and on and on.

Here's another thing I know. This virus is possibly the deadliest thing we've seen in the lifetime of anyone currently alive.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this thing is a flash in the pan with minimal short-term repercussions other than massive loss of life and zero long term effects. You're a betting man. Are you rolling those dice?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2020, 11:42:19 AM »
You quoted a section of my answer that I'm most confident in, but I'm going to assume your question was on the entire post.
Your assumption is wrong. That is why I don't quote whole posts.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2020, 11:46:36 AM »
I think the whole premise is faulty here. When you are dealing with numbers so minuscule (a potential .01% shift in the death rate) there are so many factors that come into play that can result in a much larger impact on those numbers both good or bad that it makes little sense to plan policy hyper focused  on one set of numbers.

Where are your getting that number from? This virus has the potential to kill more per day people than every other cause of death combined, as it has already been doing in several places that were slow and hit hard. That’s a 100% increase, certainly not .01 or anything minuscule.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2020, 11:49:49 AM »
Your assumption is wrong. That is why I don't quote whole posts.

I'm not sure what part of the quote is an assumption. That exposing everyone to the illness will cause a pandemic? We're already there by every measure of the term, and that's without full exposure of the masses.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2020, 12:00:41 PM »
I'm not sure what part of the quote is an assumption. That exposing everyone to the illness will cause a pandemic? We're already there by every measure of the term, and that's without full exposure of the masses.
If everyone is exposed, or more specifically everyone under the age of 50 who isn't immunocompromised we can assume there is herd immunity. Saying to assume otherwise is borderline conspiracy theory.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2020, 12:07:13 PM »
If everyone is exposed, or more specifically everyone under the age of 50 who isn't immunocompromised we can assume there is herd immunity. Saying to assume otherwise is borderline conspiracy theory.

A) You're saying post-pandemic.

B) False. We have no idea about the immunity of anyone who had it already, let alone was just exposed. That's not a conspiracy theory, it's scientific fact. It's unknown.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2020, 12:11:45 PM »
If everyone is exposed, or more specifically everyone under the age of 50 who isn't immunocompromised we can assume there is herd immunity. Saying to assume otherwise is borderline conspiracy theory.
Why is it borderline conspiracy theory? Has every virus/illness in history immunized those infected? For how long?

Flu immunity starts to wear off after approximately 6 months. Imagine if every single flu season we let everyone get it, without sick people staying home, and without vaccinating, so we can reach “herd immunity” each year.. and the flu HAS been proven to be stopped by immunity.

Ludicrous.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2020, 12:13:37 PM »
Why is it borderline conspiracy theory? Has every virus/illness in history immunized those infected? For how long?
I haven't found a single source saying they believe there is no immunity, everyone believes there is immunity but it hasn't been proven yet.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2020, 12:14:38 PM »
Why is it borderline conspiracy theory? Has every virus/illness in history immunized those infected? For how long?

Flu immunity wear off. Imagine if every single flu season we let everyone get it, without sick people staying home, and without vaccinating, so we can reach “herd immunity” each year.. and the flu HAS been proven to be stopped by immunity.

Ludicrous.
Flu mutates very often, so far the evidence points to COVID-19 not mutating too often.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2020, 12:16:08 PM »
A) You're saying post-pandemic.
You said everyone getting it won't lead to herd immunity, when else do you expect there to be herd immunity from everyone getting it if not after everyone gets it?
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