Author Topic: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison  (Read 70441 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2020, 01:39:55 PM »
To me this is drip drip drip. I think I said this a few times before.  :)
How do we safely fly, sporting events, dining out or a hundred other things?

I don't have the answer to your question. I also don't think I need it today. I'm ok with getting it in a little while. What I look at is progress we've actually made. In January, the medical establishment was still of the opinion that this virus wasn't transmitted human-to-human. After that came the discovery that it was airborne. This was followed by experimental drugs, which worked to varying degrees, as well as preventative measures which slowed the rate of infection. Progress is being made, even if it's not as fast as we'd like. I'm not sure we're at the panic point yet, where we abandon life-saving measures in an effort to "get back to normal."
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2020, 01:45:03 PM »
Not great with statistics, but I'm seeing an individual in Sweden is almost 3 times more likely to die. That's a pretty big deal to me...

Three times a minuscule number is still minuscule. Someone who is depressed is over 3 times more likely to die then others but it is still a minuscule number.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2020, 01:46:01 PM »
Three times a minuscule number is still minuscule. Someone who is depressed is over 3 times more likely to die then others but it is still a minuscule number.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2020, 01:49:01 PM »
Three times a minuscule number is still minuscule. Someone who is depressed is over 3 times more likely to die then others but it is still a minuscule number.

Fair
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2020, 01:49:04 PM »
The flip side is we isolate until we get a vaccine. Good luck with that one.
That is a straw man, and you know it
Assuming we have great testing capacity we aggressively work to ensure no new outbreaks start by quashing any instantly. Also, increased time means we’ll have far better treatments and prophylactic protocols available thus lowering the mortality rate significantly
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2020, 01:55:05 PM »
That is a straw man, and you know it
If a fact is a straw man then so be it.
Testing has been a disaster. This is drip drip drip.
Do see any breakthroughs on the horizon before the end of the year? You can't keep the country shutdown until then.
What happens if the second wave is worse than the first?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2020, 02:14:07 PM »
The issue I see here is some people don't realize that every day that the country is shut down has serious repercussions on peoples lives and the economy. Anyone saying let's just wait it out for a few more months just to be safe is seriously underestimating the repercussions.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2020, 02:16:12 PM »
The issue I see here is some people don't realize that every day that the country is shut down has serious repercussions on peoples lives and the economy. Anyone saying let's just wait it out for a few more months just to be safe is seriously underestimating the repercussions.
I agree. So many factors to consider when making such a decision. I am waiting to see how Israels opening up works out. Maybe we can follow something similar here once the numbers go down.

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2020, 02:19:24 PM »
The issue I see here is some people don't realize that every day that the country is shut down has serious repercussions on peoples lives and the economy. Anyone saying let's just wait it out for a few more months just to be safe is seriously underestimating the repercussions.
I was all for a national shutdown. The issue now is this drip drip drip.
The problem also is we see no real deaths from a national shutdown so far. What if the experts started predicting how many lives will be lost for each month of a shutdown. How about how many lives will be ruined and so on? Would that change some minds? 
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2020, 02:23:18 PM »
I was all for a national shutdown. The issue now is this drip drip drip.
The problem also is we see no real deaths from a national shutdown so far. What if the experts started predicting how many lives will be lost for each month of a shutdown. How about how many lives will be ruined and so on? Would that change some minds? 
Exactly
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2020, 02:25:07 PM »
The issue I see here is some people don't realize that every day that the country is shut down has serious repercussions on peoples lives and the economy. Anyone saying let's just wait it out for a few more months just to be safe is seriously underestimating the repercussions.

Not underestimating it at all. What about the flip side? We open everything up. Exposure spikes. Infection rates spike. We put our essential workers at much greater risk, threatening our core infrastructure. We put our best and our brightest, our innovators, our health care workers, our leaders of commerce and education, all at much greater risk, threatening our future. All because Bob may lose his house?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2020, 02:27:14 PM »
All because Bob may lose his house?
You make valid points but they are lost with statements like this.  ::)
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2020, 02:30:18 PM »
You make valid points but they are lost with statements like this.  ::)

You're right, a gross exaggeration. My point was people are protesting because they're struggling. They need to pay their bills. I sympathize, because I'm in the same boat. I'm living it. But we need to think outside of our personal struggles. We bounced back from economic struggles before. Replacing people is a little bit harder.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2020, 02:40:38 PM »
You're right, a gross exaggeration. My point was people are protesting because they're struggling. They need to pay their bills. I sympathize, because I'm in the same boat. I'm living it. But we need to think outside of our personal struggles. We bounced back from economic struggles before. Replacing people is a little bit harder.
We bounced back from the great depression but how many starved to death? I am not equating the two but showing economics does cause death.
The economics of this will directly cause lives to be lost. We need experts to give us their predictions on this also.
Does one life lost equal 10 lives ruined, 100 or 1000? Not a question I really want to think about or could even answer.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2020, 02:50:53 PM »
We bounced back from the great depression but how many starved to death? I am not equating the two but showing economics does cause death.
The economics of this will directly cause lives to be lost. We need experts to give us their predictions on this also.
Does one life lost equal 10 lives ruined, 100 or 1000? Not a question I really want to think about or could even answer.
Correct, there are terrible economic consequences to both millions getting sick and dying, and to millions being locked down.

The main difference is real, tangible deaths in front of us. (Relatively) very few people will actually starve to death or commit suicide as a direct result of the economic downturn. Those who think otherwise should look into total deaths by suicide, and increases corresponding to economic disasters.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2020, 02:55:49 PM »
Correct, there are terrible economic consequences to both millions getting sick and dying, and to millions being locked down.

The main difference is real, tangible deaths in front of us. (Relatively) very few people will actually starve to death or commit suicide as a direct result of the economic downturn. Those who think otherwise should look into total deaths by suicide, and increases corresponding to economic disasters.
We have no figures on how this economic recession or maybe depression will be in lives lost and those lives ruined. Until we have that info how do we make an informed decision?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2020, 03:05:46 PM »
We have no figures on how this economic recession or maybe depression will be in lives lost and those lives ruined. Until we have that info how do we make an informed decision?

We do have numbers on deaths and causes from the Grerat Depression including suicides.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2020, 03:10:44 PM »
We have no figures on how this economic recession or maybe depression will be in lives lost and those lives ruined. Until we have that info how do we make an informed decision?
As with everything else, using the data we do have available. We can’t be held responsible for that which would have been impossible to predict, only that which we should have foreseen based on available evidence.

We won’t know the full extent of the economic destruction with AND without lockdown, ever. This isn’t a “Choose your own adventure” book. This is life. We choose the path that appears best and don’t get to redo our decisions.

In life, we use evidence to make decisions.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2020, 03:13:11 PM »
In life, we use evidence to make decisions.
LOL
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2020, 03:15:18 PM »
We do have numbers on deaths and causes from the Grerat Depression including suicides.
Well...this is interesting
Quote from: https://www.pnas.org/content/106/41/17290
Population health did not decline and indeed generally improved during the 4 years of the Great Depression, 1930–1933, with mortality decreasing for almost all ages, and life expectancy increasing by several years in males, females, whites, and nonwhites. For most age groups, mortality tended to peak during years of strong economic expansion (such as 1923, 1926, 1929, and 1936–1937). In contrast, the recessions of 1921, 1930–1933, and 1938 coincided with declines in mortality and gains in life expectancy. The only exception was suicide mortality which increased during the Great Depression, but accounted for less than 2% of deaths
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