Author Topic: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison  (Read 71715 times)

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2020, 04:06:20 PM »
An interesting question would be the long term impacts on the economy.

I am willing to bet Sweden will end up being hit harder, which disproves the entire argument against lockdown in the first place.
How will we ever know since isn't Sweden in drip drip drip mode?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #121 on: April 22, 2020, 04:09:25 PM »
How will we ever know since isn't Sweden in drip drip drip mode?
We'll have to wait a few years to know.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #122 on: April 22, 2020, 04:11:39 PM »
So do we should not open things back up until more is known? If so how long would you wait?

I don't know. But I think the focus should be less on "getting back to normal" and more on incentivizing businesses to adapt and innovate to the current situation. Things cannot safely go back to the way they were. To give up on saving lives today because of what may be later is immoral, IMO. It's also a cop out. We're better than that.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #123 on: April 22, 2020, 04:12:05 PM »
How will we ever know since isn't Sweden in drip drip drip mode?
If we can't tell whether they were hit harder or not then they were hurt in line with everyone else. In order to matter it would need to be recognizable one way or the other. If deaths and economics are a similar result then it simply made no real difference. If any or both of them are different from everyone else then there is what to discuss.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #124 on: April 22, 2020, 04:12:32 PM »
Exactly. That wouldn’t shock me at all. This fact is exactly why we don’t risk real lives for a maybe.I answered this a couple of times upthread. When we know enough and are prepared enough to let people out without risking a large outbreak, and the capability to shut it down when it does start.
Yes you have responded several times. I am trying to get a time frame. So if it takes 1 or 2 years for your requirements to be met then that is how long we should wait?

Our meat processing facilities are getting hit way worse than they are telling us. Should they be shutdown until they can be made safe? Or is that a case of the needs of many outweighs the needs of a few?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2020, 04:24:04 PM »
1) They may or may not. Very realistically may not. So what’s the basis for the argument? Because it’s more enjoyable?

2) We can and will tell people to do something that may have negative effects on their mental health to measurably save someone else’s life. We do it all the time. Like, always.

Every single law enacted ever can be argued that it “adversely affects someone’s mental health”. My point is, you don’t even know that there *will* be more mental health issues from lockdown than from just having the virus, and I can make a coherent argument against it, but we DO know that more people will die (and the person being told to lock down is one of those at risk too. Plus their family. Who’s lives they certainly don’t have a right to risk).

Now, we can fight about seatbelts and assisted euthanasia and abortion and all sorts of libertarian beliefs if you want, but don’t get all indignant if we force people to *perhaps* sacrifice some comforts/mental health to *definitely* save many lives. Sorry.
Mental health repercussions are very real. I don't care if you can't quantify them, they are real.
If you want evidence of it you can start here https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/mental-health/491585-the-psychological-effects-of-coronavirus-quarantine and this was not a national indefinite lockdown, it was a quarantine for select people I assume for no more than 2-3 during the SARS outbreak.

Anytime something will adversely affect someone else we should take that into serious consideration. The fact that you keep making light of it shows that you're seriously underestimating its impact.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2020, 04:24:39 PM »
Yes you have responded several times. I am trying to get a time frame. So if it takes 1 or 2 years for your requirements to be met then that is how long we should wait?

Our meat processing facilities are getting hit way worse than they are telling us. Should they be shutdown until they can be made safe? Or is that a case of the needs of many outweighs the needs of a few?
It seems that in even the strictest countries they are managing to keep supply chain essentials open by prioritizing testing and strict social distancing rules. The most important things are already open, and as we increase capability, we can have more and more businesses open, prioritizing safety and necessity
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #127 on: April 22, 2020, 04:26:26 PM »
Mental health repercussions are very real. I don't care if you can't quantify them, they are real.
If you want evidence of it you can start here https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/mental-health/491585-the-psychological-effects-of-coronavirus-quarantine and this was not a national indefinite lockdown, it was a quarantine for select people I assume for no more than 2-3 during the SARS outbreak.

Anytime something will adversely affect someone else we should take that into serious consideration.
One more time. Do you have any idea what the mental health repercussions of those who lose a friend, relative, or teacher are? Are they more or less than the assumed mental health repercussions of quarantine? If you don’t know, then this isn’t part of the discussion, as they cancel each other out. And we go back to discussing how many lives we save vs. other factors.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #128 on: April 22, 2020, 04:27:58 PM »
Regarding the OP, it's not an apples to apples comparison until you have the whole picture. The two approaches are based on a preference for higher intensity for a shorter time (Sweden) or a lower peak but extended over a longer period (Denmark). As long as the healthcare system is not overwhelmed, you can't say the Swedish model was the wrong approach.
The only way to know anything for sure is in hindsight. We can only use tools and data we have currently. As of now, Denmark looks to be getting back to normal faster with much fewer lives lost and in a far shorter period of time. That’s apples to apples.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2020, 04:29:48 PM »
One more time. Do you have any idea what the mental health repercussions of those who lose a friend, relative, or teacher are? Are they more or less than the assumed mental health repercussions of quarantine? If you don’t know, then this isn’t part of the discussion, as they cancel each other out. And we go back to discussing how many lives we save vs. other factors.
Now you're moving the goal posts, because that's not what you said a few minutes ago
1) They may or may not. Very realistically may not. So what’s the basis for the argument? Because it’s more enjoyable?

I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2020, 04:30:10 PM »
It seems that in even the strictest countries they are managing to keep supply chain essentials open by prioritizing testing and strict social distancing rules. The most important things are already open, and as we increase capability, we can have more and more businesses open, prioritizing safety and necessity
The problem is meat processing facilities have been notorious for being unsafe before this virus hit. We are probably already at the point of choosing lives over supply.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2020, 04:31:02 PM »
Now you're moving the goal posts...
No goal post posts without paying royalties.  :)
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2020, 04:31:56 PM »
Now you're moving the goal posts, because that's not what you said a few minutes ago
That’s literally exactly what I was saying. I was saying you can’t prove one way or the other, so what’s the argument? That you enjoy it more? It can’t be that we’re worried about mental health, because the worries apply both ways.. and we should err on the side that saves more lives, not the one that’s more fun.

Was that not clear?
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2020, 04:33:29 PM »
...not the one that’s more fun.
Stick to your valid points.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2020, 04:35:57 PM »
That’s literally exactly what I was saying. I was saying you can’t prove one way or the other, so what’s the argument? That you enjoy it more? It can’t be that we’re worried about mental health, because the worries apply both ways.. and we should err on the side that saves more lives, not the one that’s more fun.

Was that not clear?
I don't think you said this until now.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #135 on: April 22, 2020, 04:39:51 PM »
One more time. Do you have any idea what the mental health repercussions of those who lose a friend, relative, or teacher are? Are they more or less than the assumed mental health repercussions of quarantine? If you don’t know, then this isn’t part of the discussion, as they cancel each other out. And we go back to discussing how many lives we save vs. other factors.
Sort of. This is not all or nothing. Sometimes small changes can help mental health significantly while not having a tremendous impact on lives saved. The mental health aspects should be taken into account and I think that they are to some extent. THis is why liquor stores were considered essential.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #136 on: April 22, 2020, 05:06:25 PM »
No goal post posts without paying royalties.  :)

So you can steal my hampster, rename him, and trot him out at will, and we can't even mention the word goalposts without cutting you a check?

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2020, 05:29:04 PM »
So you can steal my hampster, rename him, and trot him out at will, and we can't even mention the word goalposts without cutting you a check?
WOW!!! You sell him like a piece of meat over Passover and claim I stole him?  >:(
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2020, 05:30:10 PM »
WOW!!! You sell him like a piece of meat over Passover and claim I stole him?  >:(
Hamsters are not chometz.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2020, 05:48:03 PM »
Thanks to covid it’s Friday every day