Author Topic: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison  (Read 71998 times)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #160 on: April 26, 2020, 09:43:00 AM »
https://pjmedia.com/trending/watch-california-docs-say-lockdown-vs-non-lockdown-did-not-produce-a-statistically-different-number-of-deaths/


“He specifically noted that the difference in the number of deaths between Sweden, with limited restrictions, and Norway, which locked down, is not statistically significant.

"Lockdown versus non-lockdown did not produce a statistically different number of deaths. That is the bottom line," said Erickson.”

Norway was definitely hit harder, but I agree with @S209 that Denmark is a much better comparison.
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Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #161 on: April 26, 2020, 12:31:40 PM »
https://pjmedia.com/trending/watch-california-docs-say-lockdown-vs-non-lockdown-did-not-produce-a-statistically-different-number-of-deaths/


“He specifically noted that the difference in the number of deaths between Sweden, with limited restrictions, and Norway, which locked down, is not statistically significant.

"Lockdown versus non-lockdown did not produce a statistically different number of deaths. That is the bottom line," said Erickson.”
I do concede that we don’t know anything for sure. I’ll also agree there are some anomalies on both sides of the spectrum. That said, I read the article linked fully expecting it to make a compelling case against locking down but instead it was filled with more of the anti-science drivel I’ve been seeing more and more of from Fox. What is this website? I’d put serious money down they’re a hard right crank news site.

Some of their nonsensical arguments which they maintain are “facts”
“It’s clearly in the .1-.3 range as far as mortality rate”- really? On what planet? According to 2 non-peer reviewed controversial studies, there may be room to say its in that range in the lowest possible option they’re offering. But according to the main body of science it’s far more deadly, AND more contagious, including the less controversial recent NY study. I’m not dismissing the option out of hand. But to suggest that’s where science is today is absolutely ludicrous.

“locking down doesn’t help anyway, because COVID can live on plastic for up to 3 days, so odds are there’s COVID in your house and car anyway from things you bought”- I’m not even going to bother trying to pick this apart. I’ll leave it to you to figure out why a scenario where the only possible entry into your home is lingering plastic or the occasional trip to the grocery store is not the same as a scenario where everyone is acting as normal in all respects.

“people aren’t dying of COVID, they’re dying with COVID”- Aha. That explains the sharp spike in mortality in NY, specifically of people with COVID. Approximately double the amount of people as normal  are dying in NY each day. What a moron.

By the way. They acknowledge that locking down was the correct action to take based on the available data, and say we should open up now. I think once we locked down we should wait a little bit longer and then open back up with safety measures in place, once we know more. The experience of their clinic isn’t really relevant because they are located in an area that locked down early, thus preempting many deaths from COVID. I’d take the opinion of doctors located in NY a lot more seriously as they can appropriately see and weigh both sides of the equation.

All in all, I never claimed to be omniscient or know the way. I simply made an argument based on empirical data that I think remains compelling.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #162 on: April 26, 2020, 12:35:44 PM »
What is this website? I’d put serious money down they’re a hard right crank news site.

BINGO!

They would make FOX look like the opitome of science.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline AsherO

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #163 on: April 26, 2020, 12:38:30 PM »
BINGO!

They would make FOX look like the opitome of science.

Optimal epitome?
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Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #164 on: April 26, 2020, 12:39:18 PM »
https://pjmedia.com/trending/watch-california-docs-say-lockdown-vs-non-lockdown-did-not-produce-a-statistically-different-number-of-deaths/


“He specifically noted that the difference in the number of deaths between Sweden, with limited restrictions, and Norway, which locked down, is not statistically significant.

"Lockdown versus non-lockdown did not produce a statistically different number of deaths. That is the bottom line," said Erickson.”
One more point, Norway was hit at approximately the same time as Sweden and has recorded a total of 201 (to Sweden’s 2,194) deaths at a rate of 37 (to Sweden’s 217) deaths per million, so how is that not statistically significant anyway? I used Denmark because I think it’s more similar to Sweden but you can make a similar case with Norway.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #165 on: April 26, 2020, 12:43:56 PM »
One more point, Norway was hit at approximately the same time as Sweden and has recorded a total of 201 (to Sweden’s 2,194) deaths at a rate of 37 (to Sweden’s 217) deaths per million, so how is that not statistically significant anyway? I used Denmark because I think it’s more similar to Sweden but you can make a similar case with Norway.

Population density has to be a factor here too. I know for a fact that Norway did not practice strict social distancing at first, and per capita their numbers (according to you) are lower than Denmark.

Generally I would suggest weather as a possible factor as well, since Norway is further north (especially Northern Norway, though most of the population is in the south half of the country). But the April weather has been seasonably warm, granted that’s after they got serious about social distancing.
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Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #166 on: April 26, 2020, 12:48:04 PM »
Population density has to be a factor here too. I know for a fact that Norway did not practice strict social distancing at first, and per capita their numbers (according to you) are lower than Denmark.

Generally I would suggest weather as a possible factor as well, since Norway is further north (especially Northern Norway, though most of the population is in the south half of the country). But the April weather has been seasonably warm, granted that’s after they got serious about social distancing.
They were stricter than Sweden from day one though, and OP was suggesting there is no statistical difference between them and Sweden which is just asinine
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #167 on: April 26, 2020, 12:53:01 PM »
They were stricter than Sweden from day one though, and OP was suggesting there is no statistical difference between them and Sweden which is just asinine

When I asked initially I was interested in your take on Norway so I appreciate what you shared. Couldn’t care less for pjmedia’s opinion.
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Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #168 on: April 26, 2020, 01:36:34 PM »
When I asked initially I was interested in your take on Norway so I appreciate what you shared. Couldn’t care less for pjmedia’s opinion.
Got it.
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Offline Iz

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Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #170 on: April 26, 2020, 09:11:38 PM »
And about this: Do Lockdowns Save Many Lives? In Most Places, the Data Say No https://www.wsj.com/articles/do-lockdowns-save-many-lives-is-most-places-the-data-say-no-
Someone sent me that article before, I’ll have to take a look at it when I get through the paywall on yours  ;)
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #171 on: April 27, 2020, 02:20:35 AM »
Someone sent me that article before, I’ll have to take a look at it when I get through the paywall on yours  ;)

OPINION  COMMENTARY
Do Lockdowns Save Many Lives? In Most Places, the Data Say No
The speed with which officials shuttered the economy appears not to be a factor in Covid deaths.
By T.J. Rodgers
April 26, 2020 3:55 pm ET
SAVE
SHARE
TEXT
725

A theater is closed in response to the coronavirus outbreak in Winterset, Iowa, April 1.
PHOTO: CHARLIE NEIBERGALL/ASSOCIATED PRESS
Do quick shutdowns work to fight the spread of Covid-19? Joe Malchow, Yinon Weiss and I wanted to find out. We set out to quantify how many deaths were caused by delayed shutdown orders on a state-by-state basis.

To normalize for an unambiguous comparison of deaths between states at the midpoint of an epidemic, we counted deaths per million population for a fixed 21-day period, measured from when the death rate first hit 1 per million—e.g.,‒three deaths in Iowa or 19 in New York state. A state’s “days to shutdown” was the time after a state crossed the 1 per million threshold until it ordered businesses shut down.

The Lockdowns Slowly Start to Lift

00:00 / 20:36
SUBSCRIBE
We ran a simple one-variable correlation of deaths per million and days to shutdown, which ranged from minus-10 days (some states shut down before any sign of Covid-19) to 35 days for South Dakota, one of seven states with limited or no shutdown. The correlation coefficient was 5.5%—so low that the engineers I used to employ would have summarized it as “no correlation” and moved on to find the real cause of the problem. (The trendline sloped downward—states that delayed more tended to have lower death rates—but that’s also a meaningless result due to the low correlation coefficient.)


No conclusions can be drawn about the states that sheltered quickly, because their death rates ran the full gamut, from 20 per million in Oregon to 360 in New York. This wide variation means that other variables—like population density or subway use—were more important. Our correlation coefficient for per-capita death rates vs. the population density was 44%. That suggests New York City might have benefited from its shutdown—but blindly copying New York’s policies in places with low Covid-19 death rates, such as my native Wisconsin, doesn’t make sense.


Sweden is fighting coronavirus with common-sense guidelines that are much less economically destructive than the lockdowns in most U.S. states. Since people over 65 account for about 80% of Covid-19 deaths, Sweden asked only seniors to shelter in place rather than shutting down the rest of the country; and since Sweden had no pediatric deaths, it didn’t shut down elementary and middle schools. Sweden’s containment measures are less onerous than America’s, so it can keep them in place longer to prevent Covid-19 from recurring. Sweden did not shut down stores, restaurants and most businesses, but did shut down the Volvo automotive plant, which has since reopened, while the Tesla plant in Fremont, Calif., was shuttered by police and remains closed.


How did the Swedes do? They suffered 80 deaths per million 21 days after crossing the 1 per million threshold level. With 10 million people, Sweden’s death rate‒without a shutdown and massive unemployment‒is lower than that of the seven hardest-hit U.S. states—Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Louisiana, Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey and New York—all of which, except Louisiana, shut down in three days or less. Despite stories about high death rates, Sweden’s is in the middle of the pack in Europe, comparable to France; better than Italy, Spain and the U.K.; and worse than Finland, Denmark and Norway. Older people in care homes accounted for half of Sweden’s deaths.

We should cheer for Sweden to succeed, not ghoulishly bash them. They may prove that many aspects of the U.S. shutdown were mistakes—ineffective but economically devastating—and point the way to correcting them.

Mr. Rodgers was founding CEO of Cypress Semiconductor Corp

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #172 on: April 27, 2020, 02:34:55 AM »


No conclusions can be drawn about the states that sheltered quickly, because their death rates ran the full gamut, from 20 per million in Oregon to 360 in New York. This wide variation means that other variables—like population density or subway use—were more important. Our correlation coefficient for per-capita death rates vs. the population density was 44%. That suggests New York City might have benefited from its shutdown—but blindly copying New York’s policies in places with low Covid-19 death rates, such as my native Wisconsin, doesn’t make sense.




I feel this has always been the key. Especially in Israel. Everyone loves to bash the charedim in Israel and yet they dont realize that we have the highest population density in the country. BB/Beitar/Jerusalem are all extremely high density areas as opposed to areas where the non-religious live.

Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #173 on: April 27, 2020, 12:20:22 PM »
OPINION  COMMENTARY
Do Lockdowns Save Many Lives? In Most Places, the Data Say No
The speed with which officials shuttered the economy appears not to be a factor in Covid deaths.
By T.J. Rodgers
April 26, 2020 3:55 pm ET
SAVE
SHARE
TEXT
725

A theater is closed in response to the coronavirus outbreak in Winterset, Iowa, April 1.
PHOTO: CHARLIE NEIBERGALL/ASSOCIATED PRESS
Do quick shutdowns work to fight the spread of Covid-19? Joe Malchow, Yinon Weiss and I wanted to find out. We set out to quantify how many deaths were caused by delayed shutdown orders on a state-by-state basis.

To normalize for an unambiguous comparison of deaths between states at the midpoint of an epidemic, we counted deaths per million population for a fixed 21-day period, measured from when the death rate first hit 1 per million—e.g.,‒three deaths in Iowa or 19 in New York state. A state’s “days to shutdown” was the time after a state crossed the 1 per million threshold until it ordered businesses shut down.

The Lockdowns Slowly Start to Lift

00:00 / 20:36
SUBSCRIBE
We ran a simple one-variable correlation of deaths per million and days to shutdown, which ranged from minus-10 days (some states shut down before any sign of Covid-19) to 35 days for South Dakota, one of seven states with limited or no shutdown. The correlation coefficient was 5.5%—so low that the engineers I used to employ would have summarized it as “no correlation” and moved on to find the real cause of the problem. (The trendline sloped downward—states that delayed more tended to have lower death rates—but that’s also a meaningless result due to the low correlation coefficient.)


No conclusions can be drawn about the states that sheltered quickly, because their death rates ran the full gamut, from 20 per million in Oregon to 360 in New York. This wide variation means that other variables—like population density or subway use—were more important. Our correlation coefficient for per-capita death rates vs. the population density was 44%. That suggests New York City might have benefited from its shutdown—but blindly copying New York’s policies in places with low Covid-19 death rates, such as my native Wisconsin, doesn’t make sense.


Sweden is fighting coronavirus with common-sense guidelines that are much less economically destructive than the lockdowns in most U.S. states. Since people over 65 account for about 80% of Covid-19 deaths, Sweden asked only seniors to shelter in place rather than shutting down the rest of the country; and since Sweden had no pediatric deaths, it didn’t shut down elementary and middle schools. Sweden’s containment measures are less onerous than America’s, so it can keep them in place longer to prevent Covid-19 from recurring. Sweden did not shut down stores, restaurants and most businesses, but did shut down the Volvo automotive plant, which has since reopened, while the Tesla plant in Fremont, Calif., was shuttered by police and remains closed.


How did the Swedes do? They suffered 80 deaths per million 21 days after crossing the 1 per million threshold level. With 10 million people, Sweden’s death rate‒without a shutdown and massive unemployment‒is lower than that of the seven hardest-hit U.S. states—Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Louisiana, Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey and New York—all of which, except Louisiana, shut down in three days or less. Despite stories about high death rates, Sweden’s is in the middle of the pack in Europe, comparable to France; better than Italy, Spain and the U.K.; and worse than Finland, Denmark and Norway. Older people in care homes accounted for half of Sweden’s deaths.

Very interesting. I will take a look at this. One thing that pops out at me from a cursory overview is that calling Sweden middle of the pack in Europe seems pretty disingenuous, considering it’s 10th out of 37 European countries in deaths per million. Of the 10 countries with higher DPM on that list, most recorded their first death weeks before Sweden and death rates are plummeting, while Sweden’s death rate is still on a sharp upward trend.

Quote
We should cheer for Sweden to succeed, not ghoulishly bash them. They may prove that many aspects of the U.S. shutdown were mistakes—ineffective but economically devastating—and point the way to correcting them.

Mr. Rodgers was founding CEO of Cypress Semiconductor Corp

This is the truest part of this article. Everyone should be rooting for it to work. I think it was foolish for them to do so, and will vigorously defend the decisions of politicians to use the available data to implement harsh measures to save lives, but if their gamble proves lucky enough to work then we can use that data to ease restrictions without subjecting ourselves as human guinea pigs.

Again, it was a gamble. If it works it will have amounted to a lucky guess. The empirical data we had available (and still have) showed distancing as the most effective and safest measure.
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #174 on: April 27, 2020, 01:42:23 PM »


This is the truest part of this article. Everyone should be rooting for it to work. I think it was foolish for them to do so, and will vigorously defend the decisions of politicians to use the available data to implement harsh measures to save lives, but if their gamble proves lucky enough to work then we can use that data to ease restrictions without subjecting ourselves as human guinea pigs.

Again, it was a gamble. If it works it will have amounted to a lucky guess. The empirical data we had available (and still have) showed distancing as the most effective and safest measure.
[/quote]

But the US didn't gamble?
We gambled with the economy, jobs, people's livelihoods ..... (will take a long time for it to get back to normal for people)
Not to mention people's rights are being trampled, especially with these draconian laws that don't make sense that the police are enforcing (like in NY, they care more about socail distancing than actual crimes that are committed)

How is that paying off for us?
People are still dying with the lockdown

Listening in the beginning to the models that predicted that millions would die (one of those models was from a guy that works for Bill Gates foundation that predicted with all the other viruses in the past 20 years that millions would die, and we still listen to him)
(Its like listening to the climate "scientists" Greta thunberg on)

Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #175 on: April 27, 2020, 02:41:23 PM »

But the US didn't gamble?
We gambled with the economy, jobs, people's livelihoods ..... (will take a long time for it to get back to normal for people)

How is that paying off for us?
People are still dying with the lockdown

Listening in the beginning to the models that predicted that millions would die (one of those models was from a guy that works for Bill Gates foundation that predicted with all the other viruses in the past 20 years that millions would die, and we still listen to him)
(Its like listening to the climate "scientists" Greta thunberg on)
This has been discussed ad nauseam but just to be clear, are you saying that you thought from day one that we shouldn’t lock down because even though many people would die the economic cost would not justify the reward? Can you point to an instance of you saying that?

The US didn’t gamble. The US made a calculated choice based on *available evidence* that locking down would save enough lives to justify the economic cost. We will see if it bears out, although we may never know for certain. But Sweden gambled, because they ignored evidence of the extraordinary contagion and fatality rate on the hope that a theory which has been wrong in past epidemics  would hold true.

Hindsight is always 2020. And I’m not quite sure that what hindsight we currently have doesn’t point to locking down as the appropriate action.

Quote
Not to mention people's rights are being trampled, especially with these draconian laws that don't make sense that the police are enforcing (like in NY, they care more about socail distancing than actual crimes that are committed)
Your point is not about policy, it’s about maladministration and misuse of enforcement. Are you also against police brutality against African Americans? Why doesn’t this go into the same category?
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Online CountValentine

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #176 on: April 27, 2020, 08:44:24 PM »
Listening in the beginning to the models that predicted that millions would die (one of those models was from a guy that works for Bill Gates foundation that predicted with all the other viruses in the past 20 years that millions would die, and we still listen to him)
(Its like listening to the climate "scientists" Greta thunberg on)
Was this prediction based on total lockdown or doing nothing? If based on doing nothing then they can say millions were saved by locking down.
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #177 on: April 27, 2020, 08:46:11 PM »
Was this prediction based on total lockdown or doing nothing? If based on doing nothing then they can say millions were saved by locking down.
Yup. Good incentive to make inflated predictions.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #178 on: April 27, 2020, 08:47:57 PM »
Yup. Good incentive to make inflated predictions.
How do you know if they are inflated or not? You can't gamble and do nothing.
Full disclosure: I am asking how would you know if the numbers were inflated and how would you know if they weren't inflated.  :)
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #179 on: April 27, 2020, 08:49:31 PM »
How do you know if they are inflated or not? You can't gamble and do nothing.
I don't, but the incentive is there and it is a win win. Predicting low is not.
Feelings don't care about your facts