Author Topic: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison  (Read 70279 times)

Online Euclid

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #540 on: November 04, 2020, 03:17:24 PM »
https://www.thelocal.dk/20201104/denmark-to-cull-millions-of-minks-over-mutated-coronavirus

Presumably, Sweden will be giving all its citizens a pet mink. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 03:27:47 PM by Euclid »

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״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #543 on: November 17, 2020, 01:51:02 PM »
Sweden didn't need to impose restrictions when they're citizens stayed at home without the restrictions...

Anyhow, Sweden cases are near an all time peak again, but we're still at the point in the curve we're people are saying 'but there are no deaths'. Give it a few more weeks and they'll be singing a different tune. The Asian countries are the only ones that handled this right.
And now we’re there

https://twitter.com/itosettimd_mba/status/1328735769339498497?s=24

@Yard sale @Afrages6
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Online Euclid

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #544 on: November 17, 2020, 02:25:44 PM »
And now we’re there

@Yard sale @Afrages6
One's Sweden, the other Switzerland.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #545 on: November 17, 2020, 02:27:10 PM »
And now we’re there

@Yard sale @Afrages6
Actually per this study there were few “covid deaths” in Sweden during the first wave either. It was almost all displaced mortality.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20201116/Study-compares-deaths-in-Sweden-and-Norway-before-and-after-COVID-pandemic.aspx
 They were certainly wrong about herd immunity but the strategy makes sense nonetheless. Keep things open until there is a risk of overwhelming the system at which point you dial things back, avoiding the extreme economic and psychological toll (and likely health and mortality in the long term due to the neglect of preventive health) of long shutdowns. Most of Europe suffered through severe shutdowns only to face another wave anyway, one where the citizenry is fatigued and unwilling to comply.

Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #546 on: November 17, 2020, 02:35:24 PM »
One's Sweden, the other Switzerland.
Ah yes, good point ;D
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #547 on: November 17, 2020, 02:49:37 PM »
Actually per this study there were few “covid deaths” in Sweden during the first wave either. It was almost all displaced mortality.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20201116/Study-compares-deaths-in-Sweden-and-Norway-before-and-after-COVID-pandemic.aspx
The non peer reviewed study you quoted is a cherry picked joke, did you read it?

Here is all cause excess deaths in Sweden vs. Norway as compared to all of the previous 5 years. See if you can spot Sweden.



They were certainly wrong about herd immunity but the strategy makes sense nonetheless. Keep things open until there is a risk of overwhelming the system at which point you dial things back, avoiding the extreme economic and psychological toll (and likely health and mortality in the long term due to the neglect of preventive health) of long shutdowns. Most of Europe suffered through severe shutdowns only to face another wave anyway, one where the citizenry is fatigued and unwilling to comply.
As we’ve been through ad nauseam, there is no evidence that Denmark (or Norway) suffered more severe damage to their economies, nor were their lockdowns particularly long or harsh. Schools reopened in Denmark in April. Your only saving grace until now has been the claim that Sweden would avoid the second wave that Denmark would suffer. Are you changing your tune?


If so, then this debate is settled. Denmark wins, hands down.
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #548 on: November 17, 2020, 04:09:48 PM »
The non peer reviewed study you quoted is a cherry picked joke, did you read it?

Here is all cause excess deaths in Sweden vs. Norway as compared to all of the previous 5 years. See if you can spot Sweden.


As we’ve been through ad nauseam, there is no evidence that Denmark (or Norway) suffered more severe damage to their economies, nor were their lockdowns particularly long or harsh. Schools reopened in Denmark in April. Your only saving grace until now has been the claim that Sweden would avoid the second wave that Denmark would suffer. Are you changing your tune?


If so, then this debate is settled. Denmark wins, hands down.
You realize the mortality chart shows a whole lot of weeks of below normal mortality countering the spike in March/ April? The way things are heading the gap is actually closing.

https://emanuelkarlsten.se/number-of-deaths-in-sweden-during-the-pandemic-compared-to-previous-years-mortality

Now is not the time to draw conclusions any more than  those prematurely calling Sweden geniuses when Denmark started spiking. A couple of years down the road there will be a multitude of studies looking at long term excess mortality, the long term psychological toll, the economical fallout, the impact of neglecting preventative screenings and medical exams, and a host of other factors. That is the time to draw conclusions about which path was the better one.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 04:35:01 PM by Yard sale »

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #549 on: November 17, 2020, 04:56:19 PM »
As we’ve been through ad nauseam
This goes in the long term effects of Covid thread.

Online Euclid

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #550 on: November 17, 2020, 04:56:29 PM »

A couple of years down the road there will be a multitude of studies looking at long term excess mortality, the long term psychological toll, the economical fallout, the impact of neglecting preventative screenings and medical exams, and a host of other factors.
Also the long term effects of Covid itself.

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״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #552 on: November 18, 2020, 07:02:24 PM »
You realize the mortality chart shows a whole lot of weeks of below normal mortality countering the spike in March/ April? The way things are heading the gap is actually closing.

https://emanuelkarlsten.se/number-of-deaths-in-sweden-during-the-pandemic-compared-to-previous-years-mortality

Now is not the time to draw conclusions any more than those prematurely calling Sweden geniuses when Denmark started spiking. A couple of years down the road there will be a multitude of studies looking at long-term excess mortality, the long-term psychological toll, the economical fallout, the impact of neglecting preventative screenings and medical exams, and a host of other factors. That is the time to draw conclusions about which path was the better one.
I think now is a perfectly good time to assess some of the now proven falsehoods that were supporting Sweden's approach.

No difference in the number of deaths? False.
Will prevent a second wave? False.
Avoid economic damage? False.

Now, you can try to find another narrative to confirm your prior biases towards this approach but one thing is certain- the theories posited in support have thus far all been proven wrong.

Even the government of Sweden now acknowledges their path was wrong.
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #553 on: November 18, 2020, 11:12:29 PM »
I think now is a perfectly good time to assess some of the now proven falsehoods that were supporting Sweden's approach.

No difference in the number of deaths? False.
Will prevent a second wave? False.
Avoid economic damage? False.

Now, you can try to find another narrative to confirm your prior biases towards this approach but one thing is certain- the theories posited in support have thus far all been proven wrong.

Even the government of Sweden now acknowledges their path was wrong.


Now is not the time to draw conclusions any more than  those prematurely calling Sweden geniuses when Denmark started spiking. A couple of years down the road there will be a multitude of studies looking at long term excess mortality, the long term psychological toll, the economical fallout, the impact of neglecting preventative screenings and medical exams, and a host of other factors. That is the time to draw conclusions about which path was the better one.

Offline S209

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #554 on: November 20, 2020, 02:41:31 AM »

Now is not the time to draw conclusions any more than  those prematurely calling Sweden geniuses when Denmark started spiking. A couple of years down the road there will be a multitude of studies looking at long term excess mortality, the long term psychological toll, the economical fallout, the impact of neglecting preventative screenings and medical exams, and a host of other factors. That is the time to draw conclusions about which path was the better one.
Sounds like a nice big word salad that’s trying to escape the inescapable: Sweden screwed up big time. It’s been obvious from the start.  The only thing that’s recently changed is that a big defense was your assumption that Sweden would avoid the second wave of Denmark. Now that that rug’s been pulled out, it’s time to move on to displaced mortality?

Don’t forget, as little as a few weeks ago you were still trying to point to a second wave in Denmark as evidence of Sweden’s superiority.

Very similar to many of the previous narratives.

“COVID is dangerous. Be careful.”
“No it isn’t! It’s the flu! Nobody is going to die, any more than swine flu.”
*100K deaths later*
“The large number of COVID deaths show it was dangerous.”
“No they don’t! It was the hospitals! Either way, hydroxichloroquine is a total cure! Now the deaths are going to disappear.”
*100K deaths later*
“The deaths are fake!
“What about hydroxichloquine?”
“What’s hydroxichloroquine?”
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #555 on: November 24, 2020, 02:36:58 PM »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline avromie7

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #556 on: November 24, 2020, 03:33:18 PM »
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-nursinghomes-idUSL1N2IA1CJ

And people here complain about Maimonides
Socialized medicine being worse, doesn't make Maimonides good.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yzj

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #557 on: November 24, 2020, 04:18:47 PM »
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-nursinghomes-idUSL1N2IA1CJ

And people here complain about Maimonides
Probably has more to do with the fact that the doctors in Sweden were killing the elderly patients, particularly in nursing homes, wholesale, ordering nurses to give the patients morphine and sedatives and no treatment, not even oxygen, which quickly dispatched them to the next world.  The doctors allowed almost no nursing home patients into hospitals and ICU’s, which had plenty of capacity, leaving them to die with no attempt to treat them instead.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-toll-on-swedens-elderly-families-blame-the-government-11592479430
Bingo. Wouldn’t be shocked if that’s what accounts for a good chunk of the difference in deaths between Denmark and Sweden.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:39:00 PM by yzj »

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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #558 on: November 29, 2020, 11:28:26 PM »
Bingo. Wouldn’t be shocked if that’s what accounts for a good chunk of the difference in deaths between Denmark and Sweden.
I mean, the fact that Sweden has had triple the amount of recorded cases while conducting less than half the amount of tests that Denmark has might have something to do with that too, but hey, who’s counting.

It’s easy to find feel-good explanations to suit one’s bias in retrospect, but only a predictive theory is one truly worth considering. Don’t forget this thread was opened in April. Please provide a comparison of Sweden and Denmark’s hospitalization policies if you feel it may account for some of the difference.

When this thread was opened, Sweden had recorded 1,765 deaths and Denmark had recorded 370. The numbers today?

Denmark: 829
Sweden: 6,681.

Let’s not fool ourselves. We all know what the difference was.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 11:32:36 PM by S209 »
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Re: Denmark and Sweden: An apples to apples comparison
« Reply #559 on: November 30, 2020, 01:58:36 AM »
I mean, the fact that Sweden has had triple the amount of recorded cases while conducting less than half the amount of tests that Denmark has might have something to do with that too, but hey, who’s counting.

It’s easy to find feel-good explanations to suit one’s bias in retrospect, but only a predictive theory is one truly worth considering. Don’t forget this thread was opened in April. Please provide a comparison of Sweden and Denmark’s hospitalization policies if you feel it may account for some of the difference.

When this thread was opened, Sweden had recorded 1,765 deaths and Denmark had recorded 370. The numbers today?

Denmark: 829
Sweden: 6,681.

Let’s not fool ourselves. We all know what the difference was.
Yet Denmark  continues to have excess mortality while Sweden is running a mortality deficit. There are some studies that seem to show that Sweden has almost no excess mortalities at all compared to recent years. As I’ve said the story is far from over and the true impact of each countries path will only be known some time down the road.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20201116/Study-compares-deaths-in-Sweden-and-Norway-before-and-after-COVID-pandemic.aspx