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United zeroed out an El Al charter because Dan "appeared" to cancel travel agents' seminary daughters in 1941 Poland.

TAs were later drowned when Noah's arc submerged after Dan ordered Batchy to dispute all cubit charges.

*Update*
Dan has issued a debit memo to all TAs. In response, TAs have retroactively removed the DD affiliate code from their Amazon purchases. The sides are currently at a standoff. Only a price mistake stands a chance to bring the sides together.
« Last edited by Yehuda57 on April 28, 2020, 10:21:34 AM »

Author Topic: Delta to tlv opening May 8  (Read 41322 times)

Offline ilherman

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #180 on: April 27, 2020, 04:22:03 PM »
You didn't answer my question.

When its more convenient for him to just cut a check for the broker and let the broker make sure it gets to the insurance company.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline aygart

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #181 on: April 27, 2020, 04:22:22 PM »
Same here. Its not the TA who is the airlines customer, its the passenger.
So then why would the airline issue the refund to the TA and not the passenger?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ilherman

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #182 on: April 27, 2020, 04:24:50 PM »
So then why would the airline issue the refund to the TA and not the passenger?
Because at that point in time he did you a favor a borrowed you the money?

NOT BECAUSE HE BOUGHT IT FROM THE AIRLINE AND SOLD IT TO YOU.  THIS IS NOT HOW IT WORKS.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline aygart

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #183 on: April 27, 2020, 04:25:48 PM »
Because at that point in time he did you a favor a borrowed you the money?

NOT BECAUSE HE BOUGHT IT FROM THE AIRLINE AND SOLD IT TO YOU.  THIS IS NOT HOW IT WORKS.

So why would that mean that the airline considers the TA to be the one deserving the refund?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ilherman

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #184 on: April 27, 2020, 04:26:54 PM »
THE AIRLINE CONSIDERS THE PASSENGER AS THE CUSTOMER. ALWAYS. THE TRAVEL AGENT IS A PASS THROUGH.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline ilherman

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #185 on: April 27, 2020, 04:28:04 PM »
Because at that point in time he did you a favor a borrowed you the money?

NOT BECAUSE HE BOUGHT IT FROM THE AIRLINE AND SOLD IT TO YOU.  THIS IS NOT HOW IT WORKS.
So why would that mean that the airline considers the TA to be the one deserving the refund?
When you use ur friends CC to buy stuff in the grocery, who is the costumer?
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline Dan

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #186 on: April 27, 2020, 04:31:08 PM »
Because at that point in time he did you a favor a borrowed you the money?

NOT BECAUSE HE BOUGHT IT FROM THE AIRLINE AND SOLD IT TO YOU.  THIS IS NOT HOW IT WORKS.
Start from the beginning and explain it to people, including who makes the charge, debit memos, etc.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #187 on: April 27, 2020, 04:33:48 PM »
When you use ur friends CC to buy stuff in the grocery, who is the costumer?
Whoever is wearing the mask.

Offline Dan

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #188 on: April 27, 2020, 04:36:59 PM »
I think this conversation will be easily resolved if/when TAs take Dan up on his offer. I'm assuming Dan will allow you to sign your name on the Op-Ed, so you'd also be getting about as good an advertising opportunity as there is available in the frum world for free. If people keep posting here without writing an Op-Ed, well, that tells us all we need to know.
Bump.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Yehudaa

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #189 on: April 27, 2020, 04:46:00 PM »
Whoever is wearing the mask.
Took me a second, but ALOL.

Offline yandmk

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #190 on: April 27, 2020, 04:52:37 PM »
I've always been talking about airline charges.

But by all means, educate me. How often does a TA charge you directly for a flight on LY vs pass through?
I know a few agents who do ALL their tickets on their own cc's and charge the client separately. Some of the reasons being:
1) To earn 5x mileage (which well covers the 3% fee they pay for the cc processing)
2) So the client doesn't need to know if/how much markup there was
3) In general, in case of a chargeback, the airline won't fight too hard to win, and will just pass on as an ADM to the agency. However, if the agent charged the client in his own terminal, he would often be able to win the dispute by providing the necessary evidence that the pax agreed to (not referring to cases like now where the airline cancelled. More like when the pax decided it's ok to dispute because the flight arrived 6 hours late, etc.)

But most agents charge via the airline.

Offline ilherman

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #191 on: April 27, 2020, 04:56:02 PM »
When you use ur friends CC to buy stuff in the grocery, who is the costumer?
Lets continue with this analogy for a second.

You get home and pay back your friend via cc, then you get home and want to use the milk and you see that its sour. Do you dispute the charge on your cc?

The fact that the agent made commision is like your friend making 5x points on his cc.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline yandmk

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #192 on: April 27, 2020, 05:11:03 PM »
Lets continue with this analogy for a second.

You get home and pay back your friend via cc, then you get home and want to use the milk and you see that its sour. Do you dispute the charge on your cc?

The fact that the agent made commision is like your friend making 5x points on his cc.
Your analogy may sound similar. But I'm just curious, have you ever discussed this question with a dayan?
I have extensively. And from the answers I received it's not as simple as it seems. Without going into what's right or wrong, "halachikly", it is very difficult to stop the passenger from disputing when he is in the right. He is not directly stealing from you. He is trying to save his own money, and in the course of that, the airline may be stealing from you. But he does not have to consider that when he disputes.
Again, I'm not paskening anything here. I'm just saying, that it's not as simple as you're making it. I've spent hours discussing this with dayanim.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #193 on: April 27, 2020, 05:15:14 PM »
Your analogy may sound similar. But I'm just curious, have you ever discussed this question with a dayan?
I have extensively. And from the answers I received it's not as simple as it seems. Without going into what's right or wrong, "halachikly", it is very difficult to stop the passenger from disputing when he is in the right. He is not directly stealing from you. He is trying to save his own money, and in the course of that, the airline may be stealing from you. But he does not have to consider that when he disputes.
Again, I'm not paskening anything here. I'm just saying, that it's not as simple as you're making it. I've spent hours discussing this with dayanim.

This is where my confusion comes from. Why is my money less important? I'm not asking halachically. I want to know from a professional standpoint, what are you telling your clients when they ask this question?
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline ilherman

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #194 on: April 27, 2020, 05:20:37 PM »
Your analogy may sound similar. But I'm just curious, have you ever discussed this question with a dayan?
I have extensively. And from the answers I received it's not as simple as it seems. Without going into what's right or wrong, "halachikly", it is very difficult to stop the passenger from disputing when he is in the right. He is not directly stealing from you. He is trying to save his own money, and in the course of that, the airline may be stealing from you. But he does not have to consider that when he disputes.
Again, I'm not paskening anything here. I'm just saying, that it's not as simple as you're making it. I've spent hours discussing this with dayanim.
Halacha can take sometimes very different approach than das bal habayes.

But since its not like the TA buys something or is the costumer of the airline, its the passenger who is. Why should the TA be the the one to take the loss?
This is where my confusion comes from. Why is my money less important? I'm not asking halachically. I want to know from a professional standpoint, what are you telling your clients when they ask this question?
Lets take the most simple case. Some airlines only allow check payment. So when you buy a ticket and the agent is doing check payment and then charging your cc to pay himself back, why do you think that the TA should take the loss?
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #195 on: April 27, 2020, 05:23:36 PM »
This is where my confusion comes from. Why is my money less important? I'm not asking halachically. I want to know from a professional standpoint, what are you telling your clients when they ask this question?

To piggyback on this, do you ever warn clients at the outset:

TAs should then be upfront with customers that if the proverbial feces hits the ceiling-mounted cooling air blades, they will be SOL.

Offline yandmk

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #196 on: April 27, 2020, 05:24:42 PM »
This is where my confusion comes from. Why is my money less important? I'm not asking halachically. I want to know from a professional standpoint, what are you telling your clients when they ask this question?
From a professional standpoint? It really depends on each scenario separately. In cases like this, where your flight was canceled, if we're not considering halacha, I don't see much reason you shouldn't be able to dispute.
Again, it's always advisable to try to work it out with your travel consultant and try to agree on something or come to some understanding. But if he's not willing to understand, I don't see why you shouldn't try to save your money.
Again I'm not talking holachikally. Just from a business point of view.
Yes. I am a travel agent myself. And I have lost thousands of dollars over the last couple of months. (Besides for the lack of new sales) But I always try my best to view myself in the customer's shoes when handling a situation. It's not always easy. I try to understand them, and I wish that they understand me too...

Offline aygart

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #197 on: April 27, 2020, 05:24:56 PM »
Halacha can take sometimes very different approach than das bal habayes.

But since its not like the TA buys something or is the costumer of the airline, its the passenger who is. Why should the TA be the the one to take the loss?Lets take the most simple case. Some airlines only allow check payment. So when you buy a ticket and the agent is doing check payment and then charging your cc to pay himself back, why do you think that the TA should take the loss?

So the TA is lending money to the customer and making a profit at the same time? Do you have a heter iska?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #198 on: April 27, 2020, 05:25:52 PM »
From a professional standpoint? It really depends on each scenario separately. In cases like this, where your flight was canceled, if we're not considering halacha, I don't see much reason you shouldn't be able to dispute.
Again, it's always advisable to try to work it out with your travel consultant and try to agree on something or come to some understanding. But if he's not willing to understand, I don't see why you shouldn't try to save your money.
Again I'm not talking holachikally. Just from a business point of view.
Yes. I am a travel agent myself. And I have lost thousands of dollars over the last couple of months. (Besides for the lack of new sales) But I always try my best to view myself in the customer's shoes when handling a situation. It's not always easy. I try to understand them, and I wish that they understand me too...

Lost as in cost out of pocket or lost profits?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #199 on: April 27, 2020, 05:26:09 PM »
(Besides for the lack of new sales)
I think this is the real reason for this kvetchfest of a thread.
The problem is that we're all hurting now.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.