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United zeroed out an El Al charter because Dan "appeared" to cancel travel agents' seminary daughters in 1941 Poland.

TAs were later drowned when Noah's arc submerged after Dan ordered Batchy to dispute all cubit charges.

*Update*
Dan has issued a debit memo to all TAs. In response, TAs have retroactively removed the DD affiliate code from their Amazon purchases. The sides are currently at a standoff. Only a price mistake stands a chance to bring the sides together.
« Last edited by Yehuda57 on April 28, 2020, 10:21:34 AM »

Author Topic: Delta to tlv opening May 8  (Read 12637 times)

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #195 on: April 27, 2020, 05:23:36 PM »
This is where my confusion comes from. Why is my money less important? I'm not asking halachically. I want to know from a professional standpoint, what are you telling your clients when they ask this question?

To piggyback on this, do you ever warn clients at the outset:

TAs should then be upfront with customers that if the proverbial feces hits the ceiling-mounted cooling air blades, they will be SOL.
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Offline yandmk

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #196 on: April 27, 2020, 05:24:42 PM »
This is where my confusion comes from. Why is my money less important? I'm not asking halachically. I want to know from a professional standpoint, what are you telling your clients when they ask this question?
From a professional standpoint? It really depends on each scenario separately. In cases like this, where your flight was canceled, if we're not considering halacha, I don't see much reason you shouldn't be able to dispute.
Again, it's always advisable to try to work it out with your travel consultant and try to agree on something or come to some understanding. But if he's not willing to understand, I don't see why you shouldn't try to save your money.
Again I'm not talking holachikally. Just from a business point of view.
Yes. I am a travel agent myself. And I have lost thousands of dollars over the last couple of months. (Besides for the lack of new sales) But I always try my best to view myself in the customer's shoes when handling a situation. It's not always easy. I try to understand them, and I wish that they understand me too...

Offline aygart

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #197 on: April 27, 2020, 05:24:56 PM »
Halacha can take sometimes very different approach than das bal habayes.

But since its not like the TA buys something or is the costumer of the airline, its the passenger who is. Why should the TA be the the one to take the loss?Lets take the most simple case. Some airlines only allow check payment. So when you buy a ticket and the agent is doing check payment and then charging your cc to pay himself back, why do you think that the TA should take the loss?

So the TA is lending money to the customer and making a profit at the same time? Do you have a heter iska?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #198 on: April 27, 2020, 05:25:52 PM »
From a professional standpoint? It really depends on each scenario separately. In cases like this, where your flight was canceled, if we're not considering halacha, I don't see much reason you shouldn't be able to dispute.
Again, it's always advisable to try to work it out with your travel consultant and try to agree on something or come to some understanding. But if he's not willing to understand, I don't see why you shouldn't try to save your money.
Again I'm not talking holachikally. Just from a business point of view.
Yes. I am a travel agent myself. And I have lost thousands of dollars over the last couple of months. (Besides for the lack of new sales) But I always try my best to view myself in the customer's shoes when handling a situation. It's not always easy. I try to understand them, and I wish that they understand me too...

Lost as in cost out of pocket or lost profits?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #199 on: April 27, 2020, 05:26:09 PM »
(Besides for the lack of new sales)
I think this is the real reason for this kvetchfest of a thread.
The problem is that we're all hurting now.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ilherman

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #200 on: April 27, 2020, 05:27:35 PM »
So the TA is lending money to the customer and making a profit at the same time? Do you have a heter iska?
He is making commision from the sale. He is laying out money to the airline and then collecting it back from the pax via his cc. The money he collects from the CC is simply to pay himself back. These are the facts here.

I am not a rav but if in these facts TAs need a heter iska then do a PSA...
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline menachemd1

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #201 on: April 27, 2020, 05:28:28 PM »
Maybe with EL AL it's a מציל מזוטו של ים if they go bankrupt

Offline yandmk

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #202 on: April 27, 2020, 05:32:52 PM »
Lost as in cost out of pocket or lost profits?
Mainly, returning commissions to the airlines from all the canceled trips (money which has long been spent on daily living expenses). I also generally refund the booking service fee (in cases where there was no comms) when the client needs to cancel involuntarily. (I know many ta's disagree with that approach, but that's a discussion for another time - not now)

Offline aygart

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #203 on: April 27, 2020, 05:36:44 PM »
Mainly, returning commissions to the airlines from all the canceled trips (money which has long been spent on daily living expenses). I also generally refund the booking service fee (in cases where there was no comms) when the client needs to cancel involuntarily. (I know many ta's disagree with that approach, but that's a discussion for another time - not now)
Okay so lost profits. I understand that it hurts because it is profit already received. That is worse than a layoff since it is essentially retroactivly. But no out of pocket losses. That is better than some.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yandmk

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #204 on: April 27, 2020, 05:37:28 PM »
So the TA is lending money to the customer and making a profit at the same time? Do you have a heter iska?
Totally irrelevant. He's not charging the customer more for the fact that he's laying out the money and getting paid later. He's paying the  airline, and collecting that amount from the client. If the airline pays him a cut from the sale, or if he charges the client a service fee, it's completely unrelated to the borrowing/paying situation. He's making/charging the same that he would if the client paid directly to the airline by cc.

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #205 on: April 27, 2020, 05:39:44 PM »
Okay so lost profits. I understand that it hurts because it is profit already received. That is worse than a layoff since it is essentially retroactivly. But no out of pocket losses. That is better than some.
Many TAs, mainly ones booking mileage or using other tricks did lose money, by doing irreversible moves for bookings, or making nonrefundable payments, as well as some paying credit card processing fee on refunded transactions too.
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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #206 on: April 27, 2020, 05:40:40 PM »
Totally irrelevant. He's not charging the customer more for the fact that he's laying out the money and getting paid later. He's paying the  airline, and collecting that amount from the client. If the airline pays him a cut from the sale, or if he charges the client a service fee, it's completely unrelated to the borrowing/paying situation. He's making/charging the same that he would if the client paid directly to the airline by cc.
Right so it woul not be ketzutza. Is this speculation or discussed with a rov? He is lav davka making the same because now the customer can't see the markup.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #207 on: April 27, 2020, 05:42:42 PM »
So, when is the headlines podcast on this?

If TAs don't want to write an op-ed, do any business halacha places want to?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #208 on: April 27, 2020, 05:47:32 PM »
Right so it woul not be ketzutza.
add to that, that the loan was not a loan in terms of someone actually needing the money and pay back later. It's just technically how it works. Sometimes it's a loan for a minute, from when the agent issues the ticket until he charges the card.

Or better, he can charge the card and then issue the ticket..
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

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Re: Delta to tlv opening May 8
« Reply #209 on: April 27, 2020, 05:47:49 PM »
@ilherman My issue is that on one hand you're telling me that you're just a broker and my business is not with you, it's with the airline. On the other hand, you're telling me I shouldn't take my complaints up with the airline (ie chargeback) because how can I cost you money. I'm trying to understand how you defend this business position. The way @yandmk laid it out, I can respect. If you're telling me that's your position as well, I'll respect that, too. But that's not the way you've been saying it until now.
When you find yourself agreeing with me more often than not, it's time for a cheshbon hanefesh.