Delta to tlv opening May 8

[ilherman]

How many major airlines only accept check payment?

Off the top of my head? PS in BSP. LY on all commercial / discounted contracts.

[israshot]

I had tix on Air Europa for pesach, flights got canceled due to covid. AE is refusing to issue refund, only flight credit. I want to do a charge back, but this was booked thru a ta, and ta is claiming he will ne on the hook for the charge back. Anyone know if this is correct?

@momo I believe it shows AE on your CC rather the TA.
According to what the TA's are saying here you should be entitled for your money, if the TA doesn't fight for you then what you have left besides a chargeback?
If it shows the TA on the CC then it's another story.

[Moishebatchy]

@momo I believe it shows AE on your CC rather the TA.
According to what the TA's are saying here you should be entitled for your money, if the TA doesn't fight for you then what you have left besides a chargeback?
If it shows the TA on the CC then it's another story.

Incorrect 10,000 times over. Even if the CC was charged by Air Europa, if the pax disputes and wins, Air Europa will debit-memo the travel agent for the full price of the ticket. Not just the commission they paid him.

[etech0]

Incorrect 10,000 times over. Even if the CC was charged by Air Europa, if the pax disputes and wins, Air Europa will debit-memo the travel agent for the full price of the ticket. Not just the commission they paid him.

Can they do it if they have gone bankrupt?

[flyingace]

costumer
customer

[momo]

@momo I believe it shows AE on your CC rather the TA.
According to what the TA's are saying here you should be entitled for your money, if the TA doesn't fight for you then what you have left besides a chargeback?
If it shows the TA on the CC then it's another story.

Ta is fighting, and i filed a dot complaint. I just don’t want the ta on the hook. I feel bad. I just wasn’t sure if what he was telling me is accurate.

[Moishebatchy]

There’s something that I think needs to be clarified here. @Chaikel touched upon it, but I’d like to elaborate a bit.

If you booked via a travel agent but your credit card was charged by the airline, that is NOT the same as if you booked directly with the airline. See, it may LOOK like a pure airline transaction, but it’s not. Here’s what will happen:

You dispute the charge with the airline. The airline loses (rightfully so), and you get the money back on your credit card. Then, separately, at a later date, the airline sends the TA a debit memo for the full price of the ticket. Not just clawing back the $50 (or whatever) of commission that they paid the TA for bringing you; they make him pay the full $1,200 price tag of your ticket.

Yes, it’s insane. Why are they allowed to get away with it? I have no idea. As my good friend and fellow TA @chff has said many times, “debit memos are basically a legalized form of robbery.” The airlines are bullies, and they take the agents’ money simply because they can. Like an immature brat at the playground: “It’s my ball, and you have to play by my rules. If you don’t, I’m taking my ball and going home.”

So yes. If you dispute the charge, (a) you are putting the TA on the hook for the full price of your ticket, he’s not just losing his commission; (b) you are not stealing the money directly from the travel agent’s pocket, you’re taking it (rightfully) from the airline, BUT (c) know that you are directly causing the airline to steal from the defenseless travel agent.

Maybe you can get off by claiming it’s “only a grama”? Or perhaps the opposite - maybe you’re supposed to be mevater and not claim your money from the airline, if you know for a fact you’re directly throwing a frum Jew under the bus? I don’t know. I’m a travel agent, not a dayan. What I do know is that if you can’t reach an amicable compromise with your TA, then as a G-d fearing Jew, you can’t just take the law into your own hands. You need to ask a shaila of a competent rav or dayan, and/or work the matter out in Beis Din.

Will you win, financially, if you throw your TA under the bus? Probably. But will you win in Beis Din Shel Mailah? Maybe, maybe not. At the very least, it’s worth consulting Da’as Torah before doing something that could affect your soul for eternity.

[Yehuda57]

At the very least, it’s worth consulting Da’as Torah before doing something that could affect your soul for eternity.

At the very least, it would behoove TAs to be upfront about such risks rather than springing it on the customer after things go south and bringing up eternal damnation

[Iz]

There’s something that I think needs to be clarified here. @Chaikel touched upon it, but I’d like to elaborate a bit.

If you booked via a travel agent but your credit card was charged by the airline, that is NOT the same as if you booked directly with the airline. See, it may LOOK like a pure airline transaction, but it’s not. Here’s what will happen:

You dispute the charge with the airline. The airline loses (rightfully so), and you get the money back on your credit card. Then, separately, at a later date, the airline sends the TA a debit memo for the full price of the ticket. Not just clawing back the $50 (or whatever) of commission that they paid the TA for bringing you; they make him pay the full $1,200 price tag of your ticket.

Yes, it’s insane. Why are they allowed to get away with it? I have no idea. As my good friend and fellow TA @chff has said many times, “debit memos are basically a legalized form of robbery.” The airlines are bullies, and they take the agents’ money simply because they can. Like an immature brat at the playground: “It’s my ball, and you have to play by my rules. If you don’t, I’m taking my ball and going home.”

So yes. If you dispute the charge, (a) you are putting the TA on the hook for the full price of your ticket, he’s not just losing his commission; (b) you are not stealing the money directly from the travel agent’s pocket, you’re taking it (rightfully) from the airline, BUT (c) know that you are directly causing the airline to steal from the defenseless travel agent.

Maybe you can get off by claiming it’s “only a grama”? Or perhaps the opposite - maybe you’re supposed to be mevater and not claim your money from the airline, if you know for a fact you’re directly throwing a frum Jew under the bus? I don’t know. I’m a travel agent, not a dayan. What I do know is that if you can’t reach an amicable compromise with your TA, then as a G-d fearing Jew, you can’t just take the law into your own hands. You need to ask a shaila of a competent rav or dayan, and/or work the matter out in Beis Din.

Will you win, financially, if you throw your TA under the bus? Probably. But will you win in Beis Din Shel Mailah? Maybe, maybe not. At the very least, it’s worth consulting Da’as Torah before doing something that could affect your soul for eternity.

I have no idea whether this is true (no reason to doubt it; I just don't know), but what a clear coherent post. A pleasure to read! Now, if only all of DDF would read like this...

[etech0]

Tthe airline sends the TA a debit memo for the full price of the ticket. Not just clawing back the $50 (or whatever) of commission that they paid the TA for bringing you; they make him pay the full $1,200 price tag of your ticket.

Considering that most non-TAs don't know about this, is it something that TAs should be telling all their potential customers, or is it a risk that they are assuming when opening their business?

[Yehudaa]

I have no idea whether this is true (no reason to doubt it; I just don't know), but what a clear coherent post.

+1. I was literally going to say that.

[shapsam]

At the very least, it would behoove TAs to be upfront about such risks rather than springing it on the customer after things go south and bringing up eternal damnation

Considering that most non-TAs don't know about this, is it something that TAs should be telling all their potential customers, or is it a risk that they are assuming when opening their business?

Until now, if a flight was canceled the airline refunded the money, and if someone disputed for another reason, the TAs would fight the dispute (just like the airline would) and usually win, so there was no risk by using a TA.

[sb613]

If this is the case then what‘s  the advantage of using TA for booking?

[ilherman]

If this is the case then what‘s  the advantage of using TA for booking?

Well there are a ton of advantages of using a Travel Agent. I'll let @Moishebatchy explain them all.

Not sure what that has to do with this.

[Yehuda57]

Until now, if a flight was canceled the airline refunded the money, and if someone disputed for another reason, the TAs would fight the dispute (just like the airline would) and usually win, so there was no risk by using a TA.

That's not how the post reads. It sounds like debit memos are a common enough occurrence.

[shapsam]

That's not how the post reads. It sounds like debit memos are a common enough occurrence.

It's common when the TA does "tricks", and they know the risks. Never heard of a TA asking a client to reimburse for a debit memo.

[ilherman]

That's not how the post reads. It sounds like debit memos are a common enough occurrence.

A TA can get an ADM for a million reasons nothing to do with costumers. From not canceling HX segments... Till breaking married segments... ADMs for disputes are very very rare IME.

[Yehuda57]

It's common when the TA does "tricks", and they know the risks. Never heard of a TA asking a client to reimburse for a debit memo.

Gotcha. This all makes a lot more sense now.

@Dan, you know what would be a good idea? Why not solicit one of the well spoken TAs on this forum to write an Op-Ed about the topic to educate your readers?

[elya]

That's not how the post reads.

It's the truth though. In most cases (airline canceled, significant schedule change) where the customer would win the dispute, a competent TA would be able to get a refund from the airline without having to go down the dispute route. This whole situation is completely new and unchartered territory.

[elya]

At the very least, it would behoove TAs to be upfront about such risks rather than springing it on the customer after things go south and bringing up eternal damnation

In most cases (airline canceled, significant schedule change) where the customer would win the dispute, a competent TA would be able to get a refund from the airline without having to go down the dispute route. This whole situation is completely new and unchartered territory.