Areivim USA - Coronavirus

[PlatinumGuy]

I'm not familiar with any Life Insurance plan designed like this:
And think about a family with 8 to 14 unmarried kids. To potentially provide $100k for each there would be a need for $1MM or more of life insurance. Said person isn't planning on dying, but has tight cash-flow and needs to save during lifetime. Buying an overfunded WL might be a prudent and efficient way to build up cash value that can be used during lifetime (term would be a pure expense, and only provide a benefit at death). That small policy would be insufficient to protect the family. Areivim could supplement if there's a shortfall (I am obviously not promoting Areivim as a replacement or even supplement to Life Insurance, just pointing out what some might consider a reasonable approach).

So the use-case would be limited to people who are willing to spend on a limited LI plan, but not a sufficient one? That may be a small demographic. The conversion obstacle for LI is usually inertia (or hashkafa) more than pure financials.

The demographic that will go out and buy a small one but not be able to allocate the money for a proper one is probably tiny.

[ExGingi]

So the use-case would be limited to people who are willing to spend on a limited LI plan, but not a sufficient one? That may be a small demographic. The conversion obstacle for LI is usually inertia (or hashkafa) more than pure financials.

The demographic that will go out and buy a small one but not be able to allocate the money for a proper one is probably tiny.

If I were you, I'd stick to arguing things that I'm familiar with.

I am out there in the real world talking to people, hearing arguments, seeing people's decisions being implemented, dealing with potential and actual lapses, delivering death benefits and helping people use their cash value.

[PlatinumGuy]

If I were you, I'd stick to arguing things that I'm familiar with.

I am out there in the real world talking to people, hearing arguments, seeing people's decisions being implemented, dealing with potential and actual lapses, delivering death benefits and helping people use their cash value.

And which point of mine do you dispute?

[ExGingi]

And which point of mine do you dispute?

Surprise: NONE!

You are so far off base, making your own assumptions that there's nothing to dispute, it's just totally off-base conjecture. I am not interested in arguing with you (or for that matter almost anyone). I present my opinions and facts that I'm familiar with based on my life experience.

In yiddish it's called בויען בניינים אויף בויך סברות. For some reason I think you like doing that in other areas too.

[PlatinumGuy]

Surprise: NONE!

You are so far off base, making your own assumptions that there's nothing to dispute, it's just totally off-base conjecture. I am not interested in arguing with you (or for that matter almost anyone). I present my opinions and facts that I'm familiar with based on my life experience.

In yiddish it's called בויען בניינים אויף בויך סברות. For some reason I think you like doing that in other areas too.

Your post would carry a lot more weight if it actually claimed something I said was wrong, never mind backing it up with evidence or logic.

[yuneeq]

It is marketed as a way of being responsible for one's family.

Care to share an example? Been a member for many years don’t remember ever seeing that

[ExGingi]

Your post would carry a lot more weight if it actually claimed something I said was wrong, never mind backing it up with evidence or logic.

I couldn't care less. I am not interested in any argument. I post my opinions and facts known to me, and you post whatever you post. In this case you are way off-base and have no facts to back you. You don't even seem to claim any facts to back you.

[PlatinumGuy]

I am not interested in any argument.

Yet you took the time to post

If I were you, I'd stick to arguing things that I'm familiar with.

I am out there in the real world talking to people, hearing arguments, seeing people's decisions being implemented, dealing with potential and actual lapses, delivering death benefits and helping people use their cash value.

For some reason I think you like doing that in other areas too.

I guess it's more tempting to knock me than to defend your position.

I wonder if you defer to experts on Covid as much as you expect to be respected as an expert on this matter?

[AsherO]

But from those 14,500 families, how many claims do they expect to cover? There are quite a few variables to factor and lack of transparency makes it hard to know what those are, but here are some numbers to start with, I think my estimates are conservative:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_BtAOeYUtRZHNK9QTllDgm0LWogGDvRab7HF0i1ttY4/edit?usp=sharing

What haven't I factored and where do you think my estimates are off? If only 20% of donors are in for Tzedakah only and not 40%, then the monthly amount needed would double, for instance.

I didn’t even factor that they cover both spouses, so their risk is doubled.

[yesitsme]

Random Question: Did Areivim charge all it members when he died? if yes, what happened to that money?

As stated on their site, any remainder goes towards the next collection

[AsherO]

It’s actually really simple and covered in their terms

“20) The full collection of $100,000 per orphan is based on the membership of approximately 14,500 families which constitutes the group. In the event that a member’s death occurs before the group is complete, the collection total will be adjusted downward accordingly.“

What does that part even mean? That if they have 145 people in the group the family will get $1,000 per orphan?

When you pay each month do they notify you how many families are in your group?

[yuneeq]

What does that part even mean? That if they have 145 people in the group the family will get $1,000 per orphan?

When you pay each month do they notify you how many families are in your group?

They don’t charge every month. When someone dies they determine how much to collect, and they send out an email and phone call that a collection will be initiated this month for a family with X children and therefore they will charge my card for $x.

[gozalim]

why would someone without cash flow for sufficient LI be spending it on small WL rather than decent term?

[ExGingi]

why would someone without cash flow for sufficient LI be spending it on small WL rather than decent term?

Why would said person be relying on Areivim, which obviously doesn't guarantee anything, and not take the steps to buy adequate Life Insurance?

It's just a certain mindset that some people have that won't make them responsible enough to take the necessary steps to adequately protect their family financially and maintain such coverage. 

But those same people might have an easier time if they view the WL policy as a (forced) savings vehicle, and if the policy is structured well and is overfunded it will actually be a very efficient one, while providing some guaranteed protection. Also an overfunded WL for a person with limited cash flow might be more likely to stay in-force than a term policy.

By all means, I am all for getting the right amount of protection first, and for a person with limited cash flow that will usually be term insurance, but the reality is that some just won't do it. I believe it would be prudent on behalf of Areivim to require as a condition for membership proof of an in-force, personally paid, underwritten Life Insurance policy.

[JACKBLUE]

I personally know of a family of 8 who areivim denied funds for them because they claimed that when he signed up he had some condition on his records (you have to sign that your healthy) of which statistics show that it could lead to cancer which he eventually got and fully recovered and then died from something else. I respect the decision made by areivims rabbi (big professional in medical). but the issue is that this yingerman had peace of mind knowing that he has some sort of Insurance, VS real LI where if they accept you by blood test means they cant screw you later on. (Check out the online application.)

Thank @tov hashem for PM’ing me details of this story, I reached out to Arievim for details, I don’t wanto go into all details, but this guy was dead sick for years before he became a member and he didn’t disclose any of his medical conditions when he applied which if he would they wouldn’t accept him.

[ExGingi]

Thank @tov hashem for PM’ing me details of this story, I reached out to Arievim for details, I don’t wanto go into all details, but this guy was dead sick for years before he became a member and he didn’t disclose any of his medical conditions when he applied which if he would they wouldn’t accept him.

Another example of why a precondition for membership should be an in-force fully underwritten Life Insurance policy.

[tov hashem]

Thank @tov hashem for PM’ing me details of this story, I reached out to Arievim for details, I don’t wanto go into all details, but this guy was dead sick for years before he became a member and he didn’t disclose any of his medical conditions when he applied which if he would they wouldn’t accept him.

obviously that's areivims part of the story, which the family are disputing, which brings us back to the point that the setup has a problem in such a case, VS real LI which works with a blood test and if you're eligible your approved and if not not, and BTW in such a case the decision should be made by a group of outsiders agreed by both parties.

[ExGingi]

obviously that's areivims part of the story, which the family are disputing, which brings us back to the point that the setup has a problem in such a case, VS real LI which works with a blood test and if you're eligible your approved and if not not, and BTW in such a case the decision should be made by a group of outsiders agreed by both parties.

Real Life Insurance doesn't just "work with a blood test" there is an underwriting process. Depending on the amount of insurance it will involve more or less parts. Driving records are checked (I know of healthy people who were declined over driving record), prescription databases are checked (any prescription ever filled through insurance will be there), some will do a telephone interview (which tends to reveal things that might otherwise not be revealed, doctors records are reviewed, and criminal and some financial background checks are done.

[Euclid]

prescription databases are checked (any prescription ever filled through insurance will be there)

This isn't protected by HIPAA?

[ExGingi]

Yet you took the time to post

I guess it's more tempting to knock me than to defend your position.

I took the time to post whatever responses and comments I had on your posts out of pure אהבת ישראל.

I have no position to defend. We are not in an argument, we are talking on two totally different planes. You are arguing בויך סברות based on what you imagine or perceive as what people might do (at least that's how you come across, as you didn't claim to have any knowledge, facts or observations). On the other hand I am talking from facts of real-life experience.

Theory vs theory could be an argument. Theory vs reality is no argument. There's a reason why academics stay academics.

I wonder if you defer to experts on Covid as much as you expect to be respected as an expert on this matter?

I really don't know how this is relevant for you to bring COVID-19 up here, but since you did bring it up, the answer is that as long as we were dealing with theories only, I accepted theories that might be different from mine (not that I theorized much). Once there was an observable reality, even if not fully understood, that took things to a different level (and blemished the credibility of those who deliberately chose to ignore it rather than adjust their theories.

I am not seeking anyone's respect on the matter of life insurance (or any other matter). I am as transparent as possible about my experience, knowledge and opinions. Some people like that and choose to do business with me or heed my advice, and some don't. That's perfectly fine.