Areivim USA - Coronavirus

[ExGingi]

So much for calling it a “request”. But it’s Tzedakah so let’s give them a free pass.

Exactly. You sign up as a member and get the זכות to get the requests for dignified donations. As long as you keep on donating for all requests while you are a member, your membership continues, and if C"V something happens to you, a similar dignified request will occur. If you decline to donate and then wish to resume your participation, you need to re-apply.

[yesitsme]

So much for calling it a “request”. But it’s Tzedakah so let’s give them a free pass.

Tzedakah is ממון שאין להן תובעים
You cant force it either way, they have policies in place how to distribute

[S209]

You clearly care enough to respond to me. If everyone who signs up believes it’s charity and not insurance then I’m all for it. You believe that is the case, I don’t. Neither of us have objective proof of what anyone else believes, you have their stated terms, I have a personal experience. I don’t see any circles other than the fact that people are telling me I’m not entitled to skepticism because it’s a charity.

+1

I believe there are many (don’t know exactly how many) people who choose Areivim as a replacement for life insurance because they “can’t afford life insurance and Areivim is Ma’aser”. Spoken from the perspective of someone who’s a member and has had many conversations with people about this organization.

Like I’ve said previously, I appreciate the organization and am a member but I do believe it’s unsustainable long term. Whether that’s unforgivable not is up for debate, personally I appreciate the opportunity to help people in a dignified manner and the perceived benefit.

[YitzyS]

Btw, if anyone is interested in the first draw of Areivim handeleray, check out here: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=40343.msg1815685#msg1815685

[yesitsme]

Btw, if anyone is interested in the first draw of Areivim handeleray, check out here: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=40343.msg1815685#msg1815685

What a waste of breath

[YitzyS]

What a waste of breath

If you were the Chofetz Chaim you might get a smack

[yuneeq]

Just the name implies an acceptance of responsibility.

In arievims logo it says straight up that it's tzedaka.. they're very clear that it's tzedaka, can come from maaser etc... Whatever marketing I've seen and heard (there was a recent drive in Lakewood) they don't market as anything but tzedaka, iirc they actually incourage getting life insurance... Not quite sure what marketing you've seen and your claiming it's marketed as, I would suggest you go to the website and read they're t&c... It lays it out really clearly...

Areivim - it's in the name.  Other than that it's been a while since I've seen marketing for it.

[yfr bachur]

This thread has started my chavrusa and I thinking.
We're both about 30. 2-4 kids. Learning in Kollel in EY. I'm a US and UK citizen, he's UK and Austrailian.
We have no idea what kind of life insurance we need, what is a responsible sum to be insured for, how often or why to it, even how to buy it and what it costs.
It's just easier to fill out a form for areivim when they come round the kollelim. (we both haven't done even that!)
He says he hasn't done it because "Life insurance is insuring loss of future income, I dont really have any anyway"
I wonder what percentage of young marrieds in EY are in the same boat?

[skyguy918]

He says he hasn't done it because "Life insurance is insuring loss of future income, I dont really have any anyway"

This wouldn't be a terrible line of reasoning IMO - if it were actually true. While many 30 year olds in kollel have not contributed significantly to their household income as yet, the number for which that will continue to be true through the rest of their working years is very small.

ETA: Also, if the household income is coming from one's spouse instead, then you should probably get LI for your spouse at the very least.

[AsherO]

Curious question:

The way the Areivim USA funds/trusts are set up, are they taxable for the beneficiary?

[ExGingi]

This thread has started my chavrusa and I thinking.
We're both about 30. 2-4 kids. Learning in Kollel in EY. I'm a US and UK citizen, he's UK and Austrailian.
We have no idea what kind of life insurance we need, what is a responsible sum to be insured for, how often or why to it, even how to buy it and what it costs.
It's just easier to fill out a form for areivim when they come round the kollelim. (we both haven't done even that!)
He says he hasn't done it because "Life insurance is insuring loss of future income, I dont really have any anyway"
I wonder what percentage of young marrieds in EY are in the same boat?

Well, if this is what was accomplished by Areivim, והיה זה שכרנו.

Specifically to your question about "Life insurance is insuring loss of future income". That is actually not an accurate statement. Disability insurance insures only future income. Life insurance insures the economic loss that might be experienced due to the loss of life.

For a working person there are rules of thumb which give multiples of income based on age. Those are only rules of thumb. Remember an insurance company wants to sell as much insurance as possible, but in no way do they want to insure someone for more than they the economic impact of the risk.

If you have no current income, how are you surviving economically now? Is there a need to insure your wife as an income generating spouse and yourself as a non-working spouse (in the US insurance companies will usually allow between 50%-100% of working spouse coverage on the non-working spouse).

You can close your eyes and draw a picture of what life would be like today if you (or your wife) had died a month ago. That would help you get a picture of what you need as far as life insurance. Remember, it is there to maintain your current lifestyle without economic disruption, not to enrich anyone. Once you have your own picture, you can apply for insurance. A good insurance agent will draw a similar picture to the underwriter in order to get the amount of insurance approved.

I am familiar with the US life insurance market. My familiarity with the Israeli market is extremely limited. From what I gather it's not such a pretty picture, but it is what it is, and you need to make the best of it.

[PlatinumGuy]

I am familiar with the US life insurance market. My familiarity with the Israeli market is extremely limited. From what I gather it's not such a pretty picture, but it is what it is, and you need to make the best of it.

There are plenty of international/global insurers who are also less inhibited by regulations

[ExGingi]

There are plenty of international/global insurers who are also less inhibited by regulations

Are regulations good or bad?

Of those "plenty of international/global insurers" how many are you familiar with that will write a policy on an Israeli resident, unless we are talking about high net worth or high income person that will be paying substantial premiums?

Actual facts and observations please.

[Yosel]

There are plenty of international/global insurers who are also less inhibited by regulations

shtisim

[PlatinumGuy]

Are regulations good or bad?

Of those "plenty of international/global insurers" how many are you familiar with that will write a policy on an Israeli resident, unless we are talking about high net worth or high income person that will be paying substantial premiums?

Actual facts and observations please.

Regulations are both good and bad. With health insurance US regulations force everybody buying insurance to subsidize the rest of the insurance companies customers regardless of their personal risk/expected cost, which drives the cost up dramatically for almost all customers.

Israel has no laws about offshore life insurance so there is no major global insurer that excludes Israeli residents.

Here are a few international insurers:

https://www.clements.com/insurance-solutions/you-and-your-family/international-term-life-insurance

https://globaluklife.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1p-72KT08AIVSbTtCh0Z1QKuEAMYAyAAEgJ9EvD_BwE

https://www.gninsurance.com/about-us/carriers/

The bigger names like Allianz, Geo Blue/Zurich, etc will only sell through brokers

[ExGingi]

Regulations are both good and bad. With health insurance US regulations force everybody buying insurance to subsidize the rest of the insurance companies customers regardless of their personal risk/expected cost, which drives the cost up dramatically for almost all customers.

Irrelevant. We are talking about Life Insurance not Medical Insurance. Regulations will mostly pertain to allowable exclusions and to financial strength requirements.

Israel has no laws about offshore life insurance so there is no major global insurer that excludes Israeli residents.

FWIW, most countries don't exclude their residents from purchasing off-shore insurance. IINM Switzerland and Japan are notable exceptions.

Here are a few international insurers:

https://www.clements.com/insurance-solutions/you-and-your-family/international-term-life-insurance

https://globaluklife.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1p-72KT08AIVSbTtCh0Z1QKuEAMYAyAAEgJ9EvD_BwE

https://www.gninsurance.com/about-us/carriers/

The bigger names like Allianz, Geo Blue/Zurich, etc will only sell through brokers

Do you know ANYONE that purchased life insurance from any of these? (GeoBlue is health insurance, Allianz has subsidiaries in many countries).

It seems like non-smoker discount is the lowest rate that might be available. Have you gotten quotes and gone through underwriting? How does it compare to Israeli companies?

[AsherO]

It seems like non-smoker discount is the lowest rate that might be available. Have you gotten quotes and gone through underwriting? How does it compare to Israeli companies?

I was going to say that it makes sense if there’s a global policy that it’s more lowest-common-denominator and thus more expensive. If a company works to build compliant policies for a specific country/state then such policies are likely to be more cost-effective. You’re also likely to get a better deal choosing the cheapest such policy based on specific policy and medical terms.

[ExGingi]

I was going to say that it makes sense if there’s a global policy that it’s more lowest-common-denominator and thus more expensive. If a company works to build compliant policies for a specific country/state then such policies are likely to be more cost-effective. You’re also likely to get a better deal choosing the cheapest such policy based on specific policy and medical terms.

Which goes back to what I said earlier:

Are regulations good or bad?

Of those "plenty of international/global insurers" how many are you familiar with that will write a policy on an Israeli resident, unless we are talking about high net worth or high income person that will be paying substantial premiums?

Actual facts and observations please.

FWIW, I once wrote a policy in the US on a UK resident that was visiting the US and had family ties to the US. That person was not able to get insurance at all in the UK due to her medical background. Unfortunately, a death claim ended up being filed about 3 years after the policy was written. The death claim was paid as soon as all the paperwork was sorted out.

This was not a high net worth or high income person, but it was a permanent policy (not term insurance). It was also a different time. It would be much harder to get it approved nowadays.

Finding something online by searching does not constitute Facts or (personal) observations IMHO.

FWIW, I found a travel insurance policy that offers unbelievable coverage at any age (including over 80) at very low rates. While I did purchase it for my FIL, I would consider that very limited personal experience, as BH I have no claim experience. I did try to contact the company to contract with them to sell the product, as it seems to be a unique offering available globally, but they failed to respond to my emails. That would make me hesitant about buying a policy from them, but I did go ahead with the purchase as as it was the only offering I found.

[yfr bachur]

Thank you for your (really really condensed i'm sure) explanations. I have a few follow up questions

Specifically to your question about "Life insurance is insuring loss of future income". That is actually not an accurate statement. Disability insurance insures only future income. Life insurance insures the economic loss that might be experienced due to the loss of life.

I'm not really sure what the difference is, other than thing you might have to pay for to "make up" for the loss of one of the parents (Tutors, cleaning help etc)?

For a working person there are rules of thumb which give multiples of income based on age. Those are only rules of thumb. Remember an insurance company wants to sell as much insurance as possible, but in no way do they want to insure someone for more than they the economic impact of the risk.

Do these "rules of thumb" change based on the number of beneficiaries? The average secular family has far fewer children than the average orthodox one

If you have no current income, how are you surviving economically now? Is there a need to insure your wife as an income generating spouse and yourself as a non-working spouse (in the US insurance companies will usually allow between 50%-100% of working spouse coverage on the non-working spouse).

My wife works, and I draw a small stipend from the kollel and side jobs that equal the kollel stipend. Its not like we have huge expenses with just two children under two.

You can close your eyes and draw a picture of what life would be like today if you (or your wife) had died a month ago. That would help you get a picture of what you need as far as life insurance.

Maybe I'm some sort of naive person but, I'm not really sure what money would do. If it was me to go, my wife would have to continue working and find someone to help her raise two children (i.e. some father figure for the children). and if was her, I'd have to go to work, and find a new wife to help raise my kids. Maybe you could help me with what I'm missing.

Remember, it is there to maintain your current lifestyle without economic disruption, not to enrich anyone. Once you have your own picture, you can apply for insurance. A good insurance agent will draw a similar picture to the underwriter in order to get the amount of insurance approved.
I am familiar with the US life insurance market. My familiarity with the Israeli market is extremely limited. From what I gather it's not such a pretty picture, but it is what it is, and you need to make the best of it.

Am I eligible for the US market? I lived 2/3 of my life in the states, most of my family still lives there...

[yuneeq]

Thank you for your (really really condensed i'm sure) explanations. I have a few follow up questions
I'm not really sure what the difference is, other than thing you might have to pay for to "make up" for the loss of one of the parents (Tutors, cleaning help etc)?

Income replacement - If someone is earning income of $500k/year and plans retire at 65, if executed, a policy to replace income will pay $500k/year until they turn 65. Disability insurance is used for this because if someone is disabled and can't work, they lost their entire income. It doesn't matter how much you need to live or if you have millions in the bank, you are insuring against your ability to work.

Economic loss replacement - If someone has a wife and 7 kids that they feed, school, marry, etc., if they drop one day, they want the family to still be able to eat, go to school, marry, etc. Depending on each persons family makeup and long term needs, you can insure that there will be a large enough payout to cover all those expenses down the road. Eg. How much money will be needed until the last child is married off? And then for how much will the wife need...