Areivim USA - Coronavirus

[Lurker]

Not sure what you mean that it’s a byproduct of strain. The organizers and initiators are unaffiliated.

Unaffiliated, how?

The current campaign seems to have been initiated by askanim who are involved when areivim isn’t.

If Areivim becomes insolvent, the burden on these askanim becomes that much greater. I'm not ch"v implying anything other than altruism of anyone involved, but if you think the strain on Areivim hasn't been noticed and plays no part in the current campaign... I think you're shortchanging these askanim.

[imayid2]

I know they were involved in getting it to happen but is it really entirely them?

This is what I’m being told by people who attended the meetings. FWIU it’s solely due to difficulties with the amounts needed when areivem isn’t involved and they approached areivim and put this together.

Of course there could be a conspiracy here which I can’t disprove.

[imayid2]

If Areivim becomes insolvent, the burden on these askanim becomes that much greater. I'm not ch"v implying anything other than altruism of anyone involved, but if you think the strain on Areivim hasn't been noticed and plays no part in the current campaign... I think you're shortchanging these askanim.

If areivim is universal than the burden is that much less and is a much more likely factor than a secret effort to save areivims long term sustainability.

[Lurker]

If areivim is universal than the burden is that much less and is a much more likely factor than a secret effort to save areivims long term sustainability.

I don't think there's any "secret effort." Areivim is a great (tzedakah) concept which eases the burden when tragedy strikes. Its potential reach is far greater than askanim can hope to achieve on their own, and the membership model allows coffers to be pre-loaded before the need, rather than the reactive fundraising post-tragedy. In order to ensure its sustainability, it needs more members, and a more diverse membership. Encouraging its growth is completely in line with what askanim do and why they do what they do. Seeing the burden it has carried over the last couple of years, why wouldn't askanim (affiliated or not) campaign on its behalf?

Other than Yosel and a handful of others, most people don't have an issue with Areivim in theory. One major point of contention is that it is viewed (and sometimes sold) as something remotely related to life insurance. If everyone just viewed it as a tzedakah, and made sure that their membership did not influence their financial planning in any way, most of the opposition would dissipate. You'd still have antagonists, but no more than any other organization collecting money from the public. Likewise, the sustainability questions would presist, as they do with every other organization with large expenditures. People like to support projects which will have long-term success. These questions are not unique to Areivim.

[imayid2]

Encouraging its growth is completely in line with what askanim do and why they do what they do. Seeing the burden it has carried over the last couple of years, why wouldn't askanim (affiliated or not) campaign on its behalf?

Perhaps it makes sense in theory, but from what I’m hearing this simply isn’t playing a role right now. They don’t believe it to be floundering and the reason for the campaign is very straightforward - the more people that have it the less burden on them.

[YitzyS]

I don't think there's any "secret effort." Areivim is a great (tzedakah) concept which eases the burden when tragedy strikes. Its potential reach is far greater than askanim can hope to achieve on their own, and the membership model allows coffers to be pre-loaded before the need, rather than the reactive fundraising post-tragedy. In order to ensure its sustainability, it needs more members, and a more diverse membership. Encouraging its growth is completely in line with what askanim do and why they do what they do. Seeing the burden it has carried over the last couple of years, why wouldn't askanim (affiliated or not) campaign on its behalf?

Other than Yosel and a handful of others, most people don't have an issue with Areivim in theory. One major point of contention is that it is viewed (and sometimes sold) as something remotely related to life insurance. If everyone just viewed it as a tzedakah, and made sure that their membership did not influence their financial planning in any way, most of the opposition would dissipate. You'd still have antagonists, but no more than any other organization collecting money from the public. Likewise, the sustainability questions would presist, as they do with every other organization with large expenditures. People like to support projects which will have long-term success. These questions are not unique to Areivim.

Well said! I don't think I could've written that without letting my blood boil.

I hate reading this thread. We have already hashed out every single point here. I can go back and post quotes of previous posts to answer almost every critical point here.

It boggles my mind how people could be so against a vetted organization that give people the unbelievable opportunity to help Almanos and Yesomim. People are wasting so much time and effort bashing the organization, whether openly or subtly, when they really could just be using their posting skills to reinforce the ONLY important point that needs some reinforcement: AREIVIM IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR LIFE INSURANCE - It's not guaranteed, it's not enough money to live on, and the model is not proven over decades! That point has been plastered all over this thread, and if you open the wiki, it's the most prominent thing you'll see.

But it doesn't stop haters from raising those points again and again in a nefarious way. Why dissuade people from donating to widows and orphans? Of course you can post that in your opinion, the organization's coffers may not last forever, so the tzedakah donation may be completely leshaim shomayim, without any return if ch"v one dies. But those who attack the organization and turn people away from it instead of just clarifying these points are really doing something wrong.

I'll end with one post from myself that I think we all ought to keep in mind:

even if they would shut down today, it would have been a resounding success

[aygart]

This is what I’m being told by people who attended the meetings. FWIU it’s solely due to difficulties with the amounts needed when areivem isn’t involved and they approached areivim and put this together.

Of course there could be a conspiracy here which I can’t disprove.

I for one don't consider it a conspiracy even if that was the entire purpose. Let it last as long as it can. Even if the math is the same a a ponzi scheme there is one significant difference here in that even if it collapses every contribution was just as much tzedaka as when it was given

[Lurker]

Perhaps it makes sense in theory, but from what I’m hearing this simply isn’t playing a role right now. They don’t believe it to be floundering and the reason for the campaign is very straightforward - the more people that have it the less burden on them.

Facts on the ground are that they are increasing membership "fees" and charging those fees at a higher rate than before. There is no way the askanim are blind to this. It doesn't need to be *the* reason for the push.

[imayid2]

Facts on the ground are that they are increasing membership "fees" and charging those fees at a higher rate than before. There is no way the askanim are blind to this. It doesn't need to be *the* reason for the push.

The fee increase is because they are raising the benefits amount. Why in the world does that indicate trouble?

[yelped]

Facts on the ground are that they are increasing membership "fees" and charging those fees at a higher rate than before. There is no way the askanim are blind to this. It doesn't need to be *the* reason for the push.

Benefit amount per child is going up to $150k to account for rising expenses and to prevent the need to fundraise for the family separately in the case of tragedy.

[aygart]

Benefit amount per child is going up to $150k to account for rising expenses and to prevent the need to fundraise for the family separately in the case of tragedy.

That will not prevent the need.

[yos9694]

The fee increase is because they are raising the benefits amount. Why in the world does that indicate trouble?

Upwards death spiral

There’s going to be a continuum going from young healthy couple with no children to older couple in less than perfect health with lots of unmarried kids.

At least Social Security and Medicare has the backing of the US Government, forcing people to participate, that model has no chance in a non-mandated setting

It boggles my mind how people could be so against a vetted organization that give people the unbelievable opportunity to help Almanos and Yesomim. People are wasting so much time and effort bashing the organization, whether openly or subtly, when they really could just be using their posting skills to reinforce the ONLY important point that needs some reinforcement: AREIVIM IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR LIFE INSURANCE - It's not guaranteed, it's not enough money to live on, and the model is not proven over decades! That point has been plastered all over this thread, and if you open the wiki, it's the most prominent thing you'll see.

No hate for the organization, but you cannot deny that no matter how many times it's repeated there will still be people who won't bother with life insurance because of Areivim.

If Areivim ever fails it will harm many people who relied on it, and unless we have a way of measuring future harm it is not definite that their net impact is more good than harm. Giving us the opportunity to give tzedaka in a bakovodike way is priceless and I hope the org never does fail.

My key point is that Term life insurance is so much cheaper than most people imagine. It would be a big improvement if Areivim required every new member to also apply for life insurance, without any requirement to buy the policy. I would imagine many many people who get quotes for <$30/month for $1m coverage would take it, and the org would stand a much better chance of being self-sustaining if the only families fully dependent on them were the ones for whom LI premiums are too expensive.

[avromie7]

Areivim's premiums are likely to keep going up over time, real insurance can have a guaranteed non-increasing premium.

And non-increasing benefit. If someone bought a $1M policy in 2005, they would need $1.5M today to have the same inflation-adjusted benefit. If they wanted to increase coverage from $1M to $1.5M, it will be way more than 50% more expensive. Areivim increased their "benefit" by 50% for the same 50% increase in premiums. This is a pro for Areivim, not a con.

[imayid2]

Upwards death spiral

??

[AsherO]

Which demographic do you think is most represented in their membership rolls?

Adverse selection for sure.

[avromie7]

Upwards death spiral

At least Social Security and Medicare has the backing of the US Government, forcing people to participate, that model has no chance in a non-mandated setting

No hate for the organization, but you cannot deny that no matter how many times it's repeated there will still be people who won't bother with life insurance because of Areivim.

If Areivim ever fails it will harm many people who relied on it, and unless we have a way of measuring future harm it is not definite that their net impact is more good than harm. Giving us the opportunity to give tzedaka in a bakovodike way is priceless and I hope the org never does fail.

My key point is that Term life insurance is so much cheaper than most people imagine. It would be a big improvement if Areivim required every new member to also apply for life insurance, without any requirement to buy the policy. I would imagine many many people who get quotes for <$30/month for $1m coverage would take it, and the org would stand a much better chance of being self-sustaining if the only families fully dependent on them were the ones for whom LI premiums are too expensive.

Why does this change anything? The Areivim payout is the same, the only difference is if and how much more the family needs.

[imayid2]

there will still be people who won't bother with life insurance because of Areivim.

Without Areivim there would be so many without both.

It is much easier to get people to sign onto a pinpointed tzedaka campaign using maaser money, than convincing recalcitrant people to buy themselves LI. The current campaign - which isn’t being run by Areivim - has made a marketing error by not focusing on that more. It’s probably because the organizers are looking at it from their perspective, which is different than the people they are trying to convince to sign up.

[Yosel]

Other than Yosel and a handful of others, most people don't have an issue with Areivim in theory.

Just FYI I dont have an issue with Areivim in "theory". I do have an issue with Areivim in "Reality".

[Lurker]

Just FYI I dont have an issue with Areivim in "theory". I do have an issue with Areivim in "Reality".

Sorry, that was worded wrong. It's clear that you have an issues with the organizational structure, no different than you would have an issue with any other institution for similar reasons.

[YitzyS]

No hate for the organization, but you cannot deny that no matter how many times it's repeated there will still be people who won't bother with life insurance because of Areivim.

I think I'm only going to respond to posts here with links to previous posts on this thread where their point was already raised and discussed...

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116075.msg2242788