Areivim USA - Coronavirus

[zh cohen]

Dear askanim,

I know that you held a fundraising drive the last few days for Ploni, a father of 11 who passed away suddenly leaving his family destitute. I appreciate the kind gesture you did by raising 1.3 million dollars for the family. Unfortunately, you are terrible people. Had you left the family to wallow in their poverty, who knows how many more parents would have seen and purchased life insurance.

Hashem repays people who do mitzvos, but sadly, you are not they. I will pray for your souls as you rot in a very special place in hell.

Thanks for reading.


OR

as I said

People can blame any good organization for it's downsides. "Without TAG, less people will have smartphones". Yes, maybe. But that doesn't outweigh their benefit. People think that just by being an organization, we can take them to task for every small downside.

+1

I don't think the percentage of people buying life insurance is less because of Areivim and perhaps the opposite (because of higher awareness).

My guess is that those who say they don't have life insurance because they have Areivim wouldn't have had even without Areivim (maybe they would say that they are relying to on parlor parties...)

[S209]

+1

I don't think the percentage of people buying life insurance is less because of Areivim and perhaps the opposite (because of higher awareness).

My guess is that those who say they don't have life insurance because they have Areivim wouldn't have had even without Areivim (maybe they would say that they are relying to on parlor parties...)

By comparing this thread with the wiki you’ll find that there seems to be a higher percentage of Areivim members without life insurance. Small, but statistically significant. Of course, the sample size is really small.

[yfr bachur]

I'm going to post something that was writen by an actuary about 10 years ago when Areivim was making a big startup splash. It was posted on a blog that seems not to exist any more, but I know who the author is. I vaugley recall that he met with the askanim behind it and was unimpressed with their responses.

AREIVIM and Why I Don’t Like It

This is just my opinion so you are more than free to disagree. Of course some numbers to back up any counter claims should be a requirement.

 Here is the Areivim plan:

A group of 14,286 (families) enroll by submitting an application and a credit card number. If someone in the group dies, the remaining members will be charged $7 per surviving unmarried child, for a total of $100,000 per child. No more than $28 will be collected per member per month.  For example, if someone dies and has 7 children, the first month’s collection will be $400,000 (14,286*$28) and the second month’s collection will be the remaining $300,000.  If there are no deaths, there are no charges.

 Now for the problems:

With 14,286 people and a maximum charge of $28 a month, the maximum amount that can be collected in one year is 14,286*$28*12 = $4.8 million. This means the maximum number of children that the group can pay for in any year is $4.8m/$100k = 48 per year. Since this arrangement is marketed to the Chasidic and RW communities, I am going to assume that the average family has 6 children. With an average of 6 kids per family, that means the fund can handle no more than no more than 8 deaths per year.

 How many deaths can we expect from a group of 14,286 people? The answer of course depends on the age of the cohort. But from the mortality tables I looked at, there is no way that this will work.  Remember, that there is no underwriting.  Furthermore, the latest mailing states that not only will they give $100,000 per child, they will also give money to a surviving female spouse with 3 or more children. Last, it also appears that they will pay money to the surviving children whether it is the father or mother who pass way. This means that in the cohort of 14,286, there are actually over 28,000 people at risk for dying.  Assuming 8 deaths or less from a group of 28,000 is well below any mortality table at any age.

 Another question I had was as follows:  As more people die the group gets smaller, so that later deaths do not have 14,286 people each chipping in $7 per child. So unless there is a constant flow of new people signing up and paying, by definition the plan fails. And any plan that requires constant new entrants to be able to pay the older ones is not an insurance plan but rather a Ponzi scheme.

 Furthermore, credit cards get cancelled or expire. Who is going to track down the large number of uncollectable funds after each death?  Isn’t there a cost for collecting money out of credit cards?  Who is paying for that?

 Yet another issue I have is regarding their rule on what happens to the $100k after collection. According to their brochure, ‘special accounts’ will be set up with the oversight of rabbonim, run by askonim who will distribute the money over time, to and through the wedding.  I am pretty sure that Bernie Madoff himself would have passed the “rabbonim oversight” test.  If there is any potential for fraud and abuse, this is it. Having a multi-million dollar fund in the hands of an ‘askan’ is a recipe for disaster. And cynics like me will be the first to point it out to anyone who asks.   

 Last but not least, are the distortions and outright lies in their most recent mailing.  The brochure begins by stating that after two years the program is working, so all the naysayers were wrong. First, I am not sure two years would be enough time to prove any such thing. Second, according to my sources inside the organization, they still do not yet have a cohort of 14,286 people, so how can they say this?  Third, this statement is completely un-auditable. We have no idea how many people have signed up, how many deaths there were, and whether or not outside collections were used to pay for them.

 Later in the brochure they state that as of now 3 out of every 5 people have not yet signed up for Areivim.  Using my brilliant analytical skills I determined that they are therefore saying that 2 out of every 5 people have signed up.  Do you believe that 40% of Klal Yisroel has signed up for this plan? Let’s put it this way, do you know anyone who has?

 The brochure also says that ALL the Gedolim in EY and America have endorsed it. Well, my son’s Rosh Yeshiva put up a sign in his Yeshiva saying that he doesn’t; though perhaps all that proves is that my son’s RY is not a Godol.  J  My Rov was also asked to endorse and he too refused.

 The brochure makes mention that the number of deaths experienced so far is far lower than ‘Al Pi Derech Hatevah’ (expected).  This is in fact quite possible even if I can’t audit them. And perhaps that can be their selling point - join Areivim and Hashem will bless you with a lower-than-expected mortality.  But I think we are all better served by buying insurance from a reputable insurance company, with an annual financial statement and appropriate reserves, that pays the beneficiaries upon death

[AsherO]

I'm going to post something that was writen by an actuary about 10 years ago when Areivim was making a big startup splash. It was posted on a blog that seems not to exist any more, but I know who the author is. I vaugley recall that he met with the askanim behind it and was unimpressed with their responses.

AREIVIM and Why I Don’t Like It

This is just my opinion so you are more than free to disagree. Of course some numbers to back up any counter claims should be a requirement.

 Here is the Areivim plan:

A group of 14,286 (families) enroll by submitting an application and a credit card number. If someone in the group dies, the remaining members will be charged $7 per surviving unmarried child, for a total of $100,000 per child. No more than $28 will be collected per member per month.  For example, if someone dies and has 7 children, the first month’s collection will be $400,000 (14,286*$28) and the second month’s collection will be the remaining $300,000.  If there are no deaths, there are no charges.

 Now for the problems:

With 14,286 people and a maximum charge of $28 a month, the maximum amount that can be collected in one year is 14,286*$28*12 = $4.8 million. This means the maximum number of children that the group can pay for in any year is $4.8m/$100k = 48 per year. Since this arrangement is marketed to the Chasidic and RW communities, I am going to assume that the average family has 6 children. With an average of 6 kids per family, that means the fund can handle no more than no more than 8 deaths per year.

 How many deaths can we expect from a group of 14,286 people? The answer of course depends on the age of the cohort. But from the mortality tables I looked at, there is no way that this will work.  Remember, that there is no underwriting.  Furthermore, the latest mailing states that not only will they give $100,000 per child, they will also give money to a surviving female spouse with 3 or more children. Last, it also appears that they will pay money to the surviving children whether it is the father or mother who pass way. This means that in the cohort of 14,286, there are actually over 28,000 people at risk for dying.  Assuming 8 deaths or less from a group of 28,000 is well below any mortality table at any age.

 Another question I had was as follows:  As more people die the group gets smaller, so that later deaths do not have 14,286 people each chipping in $7 per child. So unless there is a constant flow of new people signing up and paying, by definition the plan fails. And any plan that requires constant new entrants to be able to pay the older ones is not an insurance plan but rather a Ponzi scheme.

 Furthermore, credit cards get cancelled or expire. Who is going to track down the large number of uncollectable funds after each death?  Isn’t there a cost for collecting money out of credit cards?  Who is paying for that?

 Yet another issue I have is regarding their rule on what happens to the $100k after collection. According to their brochure, ‘special accounts’ will be set up with the oversight of rabbonim, run by askonim who will distribute the money over time, to and through the wedding.  I am pretty sure that Bernie Madoff himself would have passed the “rabbonim oversight” test.  If there is any potential for fraud and abuse, this is it. Having a multi-million dollar fund in the hands of an ‘askan’ is a recipe for disaster. And cynics like me will be the first to point it out to anyone who asks.   

 Last but not least, are the distortions and outright lies in their most recent mailing.  The brochure begins by stating that after two years the program is working, so all the naysayers were wrong. First, I am not sure two years would be enough time to prove any such thing. Second, according to my sources inside the organization, they still do not yet have a cohort of 14,286 people, so how can they say this?  Third, this statement is completely un-auditable. We have no idea how many people have signed up, how many deaths there were, and whether or not outside collections were used to pay for them.

 Later in the brochure they state that as of now 3 out of every 5 people have not yet signed up for Areivim.  Using my brilliant analytical skills I determined that they are therefore saying that 2 out of every 5 people have signed up.  Do you believe that 40% of Klal Yisroel has signed up for this plan? Let’s put it this way, do you know anyone who has?

 The brochure also says that ALL the Gedolim in EY and America have endorsed it. Well, my son’s Rosh Yeshiva put up a sign in his Yeshiva saying that he doesn’t; though perhaps all that proves is that my son’s RY is not a Godol.  J  My Rov was also asked to endorse and he too refused.

 The brochure makes mention that the number of deaths experienced so far is far lower than ‘Al Pi Derech Hatevah’ (expected).  This is in fact quite possible even if I can’t audit them. And perhaps that can be their selling point - join Areivim and Hashem will bless you with a lower-than-expected mortality.  But I think we are all better served by buying insurance from a reputable insurance company, with an annual financial statement and appropriate reserves, that pays the beneficiaries upon death

Echos the sentiments I shared, though this guy said it much better than I did. Shkoyach.

Happy to hear any logical arguments to the contrary.

[YitzyS]

Echos the sentiments I shared, though this guy said it much better than I did. Shkoyach.

Happy to hear any logical arguments to the contrary.

about 10 years ago

That.

10 years of success is enough to justify the organization. If it should Ch"v go belly up tomorrow, it was still all worth it.

[AsherO]

That.

10 years of success is enough to justify the organization. If it should Ch"v go belly up tomorrow, it was still all worth it.

Why don’t we poll the 14k members who paid in $100s (thousands?) of dollars and ask if they feel mislead

[shapsam]

As far as his numbers go, you can't argue because he's just assuming. Others can assume that the average family signing up has less than 6 children and also assume that the mortality rate in our community is lower than the general population (and besides, you can't just look at age grope, you have to look at the same age group of people that are married with families where I assume the mortality rate is lower)

As for his other problems, he's right, it's not insurance. Next...

(I don't have an opinion on this organization, just addressing his argument)

[Mordyk]

That.

10 years of success is enough to justify the organization. If it should Ch"v go belly up tomorrow, it was still all worth it.

-1   that means they cant handle a pandemic, local epidemic, terrorist attack etc.  Life insurance is for the most part not contingent on that.

[YitzyS]

-1   that means they cant handle a pandemic, local epidemic, terrorist attack etc.  Life insurance is for the most part not contingent on that.

Stop using Covid-19 as the microscope sample. There were many businesses with sound business plans that have been decimated by this coronavirus. Areivim worked until now, and they seem to be handling this crisis pretty reasonably.

[Lurker]

-1   that means they cant handle a pandemic, local epidemic, terrorist attack etc.  Life insurance is for the most part not contingent on that.

It's not LI. There is no problem with this organization if you look at it solely as a tzedaka that gives $100k to each unmarried yasom. The problem comes when people pay in, with the expectation that the organization will pay your kids if c"v you die before they are married. There should be zero expectation of benefits, other than the mitzvah itself. The problem compounds when licensed LI agents allow their clients to bring up their Areivim membership as a factor that changes how much LI they need. It shouldn't be part of the conversation, let alone the calculation. Furthermore, any agent who sells LI as a supplement to perceived Areivim benefits should lose their license.

[shulem92]

That.

10 years of success is enough to justify the organization. If it should Ch"v go belly up tomorrow, it was still all worth it.

+1 i think of this as no different than term life insurance, in the sense that if it goes belly up today, i paid in to be covered until now.

Why don’t we poll the 14k members who paid in $100s (thousands?) of dollars and ask if they feel mislead

if people were paying into this, relying on getting paid out leachar meah vesrim, the yes they were misled, and they were foolish

[Lurker]

+1 i think of this as no different than term life insurance, in the sense that if it goes belly up today, i paid in to be covered until now.

if people were paying into this, relying on getting paid out leachar meah vesrim, the yes they were misled, and they were foolish

It's not life insurance. Not whole life, not term, not partial, not a supplement. You're not doing your family any favors by expecting anything to get paid to them from this organization.

[yesitsme]

I just asked a friend of mine if he has areivim he said "yes as a sponsor not as a member" so I asked him why not as a member he said, because I have life insurance.......

[shulem92]

It's not life insurance. Not whole life, not term, not partial, not a supplement. You're not doing your family any favors by expecting anything to get paid to them from this organization.

sorry i wasnt clear enough. i wasnt saying it is LI, i was just saying that it is similar to term LI in that if you dont need the payout (BH), then its not called money wasted because you didnt get any return on your investment

[S209]

Ok, I’m going to show you I don’t hate Areivim at all by defending against some of these accusations 

Now for the problems:

With 14,286 people and a maximum charge of $28 a month, the maximum amount that can be collected in one year is 14,286*$28*12 = $4.8 million. This means the maximum number of children that the group can pay for in any year is $4.8m/$100k = 48 per year. Since this arrangement is marketed to the Chasidic and RW communities, I am going to assume that the average family has 6 children. With an average of 6 kids per family, that means the fund can handle no more than no more than 8 deaths per year.

 How many deaths can we expect from a group of 14,286 people? The answer of course depends on the age of the cohort. But from the mortality tables I looked at, there is no way that this will work.  Remember, that there is no underwriting.  Furthermore, the latest mailing states that not only will they give $100,000 per child, they will also give money to a surviving female spouse with 3 or more children. Last, it also appears that they will pay money to the surviving children whether it is the father or mother who pass way. This means that in the cohort of 14,286, there are actually over 28,000 people at risk for dying.  Assuming 8 deaths or less from a group of 28,000 is well below any mortality table at any age.

They note that payment is only to those who qualify for financial assistance and leave single children behind. It’s also only per single child, so as you get older (and mortality rises) your potential assistance is lowered and presumably the lifetime amount you have contributed is greater

Another question I had was as follows:  As more people die the group gets smaller, so that later deaths do not have 14,286 people each chipping in $7 per child. So unless there is a constant flow of new people signing up and paying, by definition the plan fails. And any plan that requires constant new entrants to be able to pay the older ones is not an insurance plan but rather a Ponzi scheme.

As noted above, of course you need more people to constantly join, because people become ineligible as they leave that phase of life. An equal (greater, actually) amount of people become eligible as people become ineligible. However, the  pool does not need to grow, just maintain its size, which isn’t an unreasonable size at the max needed for viability (15-20K.)

Furthermore, credit cards get cancelled or expire. Who is going to track down the large number of uncollectable funds after each death?  Isn’t there a cost for collecting money out of credit cards?  Who is paying for that?

If your credit card doesn’t work, you’re no longer “insured”. Just like with any term policy. Presumably there are volunteers working, but I don’t think the cost of this is too great relative to the amount regularly collected. Perhaps one full time worker?

Yet another issue I have is regarding their rule on what happens to the $100k after collection. According to their brochure, ‘special accounts’ will be set up with the oversight of rabbonim, run by askonim who will distribute the money over time, to and through the wedding.  I am pretty sure that Bernie Madoff himself would have passed the “rabbonim oversight” test.  If there is any potential for fraud and abuse, this is it. Having a multi-million dollar fund in the hands of an ‘askan’ is a recipe for disaster. And cynics like me will be the first to point it out to anyone who asks. 

This concern is valid, but many here have stated there are prominent Rabbanim intimately involved in the collections and distribution. Any time you donate money to a fund you are trusting those who set it up to administer it correctly but we trust the Rabbanim who oversee those, as these.

Last but not least, are the distortions and outright lies in their most recent mailing.  The brochure begins by stating that after two years the program is working, so all the naysayers were wrong. First, I am not sure two years would be enough time to prove any such thing. Second, according to my sources inside the organization, they still do not yet have a cohort of 14,286 people, so how can they say this?  Third, this statement is completely un-auditable. We have no idea how many people have signed up, how many deaths there were, and whether or not outside collections were used to pay for them.

 Later in the brochure they state that as of now 3 out of every 5 people have not yet signed up for Areivim.  Using my brilliant analytical skills I determined that they are therefore saying that 2 out of every 5 people have signed up.  Do you believe that 40% of Klal Yisroel has signed up for this plan? Let’s put it this way, do you know anyone who has?

 The brochure also says that ALL the Gedolim in EY and America have endorsed it. Well, my son’s Rosh Yeshiva put up a sign in his Yeshiva saying that he doesn’t; though perhaps all that proves is that my son’s RY is not a Godol.  J  My Rov was also asked to endorse and he too refused.

 The brochure makes mention that the number of deaths experienced so far is far lower than ‘Al Pi Derech Hatevah’ (expected).  This is in fact quite possible even if I can’t audit them. And perhaps that can be their selling point - join Areivim and Hashem will bless you with a lower-than-expected mortality.

These are not questions about the validity or viability of the organization, but rather the wording of the brochure. It’s something that shows you need oversight, but many here claim that there IS oversight, and I have heard choshuve Yidden talk highly of them from personal experience, so there’s that.

Their main selling point is that you are giving maaser-deductible Tzedaka to actually support a widow and orphans. That part I believe to be true. Can they survive a pandemic or other mass casualty event with this model? That much I doubt. To claim that no black swan events happen is to deny reality.

[yesitsme]

30 million claimed UI despite the PPP program and you expect every origination to withstand pandemic

[ExGingi]

Why don’t we poll the 14k members who paid GAVE in $100s (thousands?) of dollars and ask if they feel mislead

FTFY

One doesn't pay tzedaka, one gives tzedakah

[ExGingi]

sorry i wasnt clear enough. i wasnt saying it is LI, i was just saying that it is similar to term LI in that if you dont need the payout (BH), then its not called money wasted because you didnt get any return on your investment

-1000000000000

Life insurance is a guaranteed (and regulated) contract. As long as it's in force, you received value, and if a valid death claim is submitted while the policy is in force, your beneficiaries will be paid.

With Areivim, the value you receive is the value of giving tzedaka. Nothing more, nothing less. If it goes belly up, you still gave tzedaka. As far as your family getting a monetary benefit if a member dies,  that isn't promised anywhere!

[aygart]

-1   that means they cant handle a pandemic, local epidemic, terrorist attack etc.  Life insurance is for the most part not contingent on that.

This is not one which has a tremendous effect on their membership which is younger since they have children of marriageable age.

[S209]

-1000000000000

Life insurance is a guaranteed (and regulated) contract. As long as it's in force, you received value.

With Areivim, the value you receive is the value of giving tzedaka. Nothing more, nothing less. If it goes belly up, you still gave tzedaka. As far as your family getting a monetary benefit if a member dies,  that isn't promised anywhere!

Why do you say that isn’t promised anywhere? As I have stated and the poll shows, many sign up specifically because of the guarantee (you can find it on their site) that they will initiate a collection for you if that’s needed Chas Vesholom