Areivim USA - Coronavirus

[Lurker]

Why do you say that isn’t promised anywhere? As I have stated and the poll shows, many sign up specifically because of the guarantee (you can find it on their site) that they will initiate a collection for you if that’s needed Chas Vesholom

Initiating a collection isn't a guarantee of funds. It's "I'll try."

[aygart]

Why do you say that isn’t promised anywhere? As I have stated and the poll shows, many sign up specifically because of the guarantee (you can find it on their site) that they will initiate a collection for you if that’s needed Chas Vesholom

That is a significant issue because their long term viability is questionable.

[S209]

Initiating a collection isn't a guarantee of funds. It's "I'll try."

They should be more clear

[aygart]

 As noted above, of course you need more people to constantly join, because people become ineligible as they leave that phase of life. An equal (greater, actually) amount of people become eligible as people become ineligible. However, the  pool does not need to grow, just maintain its size, which isn’t an unreasonable size at the max needed for viability (15-20K.)

He was not referring to replacement rate but growth rate as is very clear in his math. What is your calculation showing that this is the max needed for viability?

[S209]

He was not referring to replacement rate but growth rate as is very clear in his math. What is your calculation showing that this is the max needed for viability?

Based on their calculations. If it grows larger, the economics balance out- make a separate fund or collect less per member per death. Liability shouldn’t be growing disproportionately just because the group got larger, and they supposedly don’t need growth to maintain the status quo. That was his accusation, and it’s false.

[aygart]

Based on their calculations. If it grows larger, the economics balance out- make a separate fund or collect less per member per death. Liability shouldn’t be growing disproportionately just because the group got larger, and they supposedly don’t need growth to maintain the status quo. That was his accusation, and it’s false.

On what basis is anyone saying that they don't need growth to maintain?

[skyguy918]

They note that payment is only to those who qualify for financial assistance and leave single children behind. It’s also only per single child, so as you get older (and mortality rises) your potential assistance is lowered and presumably the lifetime amount you have contributed is greater
 As noted above, of course you need more people to constantly join, because people become ineligible as they leave that phase of life. An equal (greater, actually) amount of people become eligible as people become ineligible. However, the  pool does not need to grow, just maintain its size, which isn’t an unreasonable size at the max needed for viability (15-20K.)
 If your credit card doesn’t work, you’re no longer “insured”. Just like with any term policy. Presumably there are volunteers working, but I don’t think the cost of this is too great relative to the amount regularly collected. Perhaps one full time worker?

Adverse selection pokes holes in most of this. If the whole of their membership actually viewed it as tzedakah, that would not likely be a concern. But since the reality is there is likely a significant portion of their membership that does view it as a kind of insurance, adverse selection becomes a problem.

[shulem92]

-1000000000000

Life insurance is a guaranteed (and regulated) contract. As long as it's in force, you received value.

With Areivim, the value you receive is the value of giving tzedaka. Nothing more, nothing less. If it goes belly up, you still gave tzedaka. As far as your family getting a monetary benefit if a member dies,  that isn't promised anywhere!

Once again you missed my point. Leaving aside this pandemic, as long as the organization is running, you will get a collection if u drop dead. Obviously its not guaranteed for 10 years. But as long as the organization is running you will get a collection. Comparison– term LI, as long as youre insured, you will get a payout. The proper comparison would be organization shuts down = your term policy expires. Im not saying this is LI, just pointing out that the organization was a success for the years it has been running, and as @YitzyS said, even if it shuts down today it was worth it while it was running

[ExGingi]

Once again you missed my point. Leaving aside this pandemic, as long as the organization is running, you will get a collection if u drop dead. Obviously its not guaranteed for 10 years. But as long as the organization is running you will get a collection. Comparison– term LI, as long as youre insured, you will get a payout. The proper comparison would be organization shuts down = your term policy expires. Im not saying this is LI, just pointing out that the organization was a success for the years it has been running, and as @YitzyS said, even if it shuts down today it was worth it while it was running

It is YOU who are missing MY point.

Areivim offers no promises or guarantees (please correct me if I'm wrong about this, by showing me the contract or wording on their website that indicates the contrary). They are a charity with very good intentions. They cannot promise or guarantee that those intentions will actually be carried out.

[David61]

Once again you missed my point. Leaving aside this pandemic, as long as the organization is running, you will get a collection if u drop dead. Obviously its not guaranteed for 10 years. But as long as the organization is running you will get a collection. Comparison– term LI, as long as youre insured, you will get a payout. The proper comparison would be organization shuts down = your term policy expires. Im not saying this is LI, just pointing out that the organization was a success for the years it has been running, and as @YitzyS said, even if it shuts down today it was worth it while it was running

. . . .Except to those who were insurable 10, 5, or 2, years ago when they signed up and have since developed a medical condition that makes their rates unaffordable.

Perhaps less money is needed if https://simchainitiative.org/  gains traction 

See https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115607.0 for more on that topic

[AsherO]

I remember seeing a membership drive for something like this, I’m not 100% sure but it sounded really similar. It was not framed as Tzedakah and I could see how people who lack critical thinking skills would see it as an alternative to insurance.

[aygart]

I remember seeing a membership drive for something like this, I’m not 100% sure but it sounded really similar. It was not framed as Tzedakah and I could see how people who lack critical thinking skills would see it as an alternative to insurance.

But the checked a box saying they understand this is not a replacement for LI?

[shulem92]

It is YOU who are missing MY point.

Areivim offers no promises or guarantees (please correct me if I'm wrong about this, by showing me the contract or wording on their website that indicates the contrary). They are a charity with very good intentions. They cannot promise or guarantee that those intentions will actually be carried out.

once again, i am NOT saying this is similar to LI. and understandably there are no guarantees, but as long as the company is running and payouts are happening smoothly, you WILL get a payout if you drop dead. obviously if the program slowly starts sinking due to being overwhelmed, or because of the pandemic, then the program will go under and zehu. The point of my entire post was just to explain how the fact that they were around for 10 years already, and paid every claim so far, was in itself a good thing. once again I am not campaigning for the long term durability of this program, just explaining how up until it was a good program. every person who paid every month until now did so knowing that if they would have dropped dead THAT month, then they would have gotten paid. my only comparison to term LI was basically trying to say that each month is its own TERM LI... you pay your $28 premium and u get a payout if u drop dead in that month! anyone who was paying their "premiums" for the future in case they drop dead in a year is foolish. so back to your original question: were they misled? no. because anyone thinking that theyre paying now for their possible FUTURE claim isnt being realistic, because there is no guarantee

[aygart]

once again, i am NOT saying this is similar to LI. and understandably there are no guarantees, but as long as the company is running and payouts are happening smoothly, you WILL get a payout if you drop dead. obviously if the program slowly starts sinking due to being overwhelmed, or because of the pandemic, then the program will go under and zehu. The point of my entire post was just to explain how the fact that they were around for 10 years already, and paid every claim so far, was in itself a good thing. once again I am not campaigning for the long term durability of this program, just explaining how up until it was a good program. every person who paid every month until now did so knowing that if they would have dropped dead THAT month, then they would have gotten paid. my only comparison to term LI was basically trying to say that each month is its own TERM LI... you pay your $28 premium and u get a payout if u drop dead in that month! anyone who was paying their "premiums" for the future in case they drop dead in a year is foolish. so back to your original question: were they misled? no. because anyone thinking that theyre paying now for their possible FUTURE claim isnt being realistic, because there is no guarantee

Fully agree. My only beef is that my impression always was that as long as they tell you that it isn't life insurance they are very willing any happy to have people using it as exactly that.

[dealfinder11]

once again, i am NOT saying this is similar to LI. and understandably there are no guarantees, but as long as the company is running and payouts are happening smoothly, you WILL get a payout if you drop dead. obviously if the program slowly starts sinking due to being overwhelmed, or because of the pandemic, then the program will go under and zehu. The point of my entire post was just to explain how the fact that they were around for 10 years already, and paid every claim so far, was in itself a good thing. once again I am not campaigning for the long term durability of this program, just explaining how up until it was a good program. every person who paid every month until now did so knowing that if they would have dropped dead THAT month, then they would have gotten paid. my only comparison to term LI was basically trying to say that each month is its own TERM LI... you pay your $28 premium and u get a payout if u drop dead in that month! anyone who was paying their "premiums" for the future in case they drop dead in a year is foolish. so back to your original question: were they misled? no. because anyone thinking that theyre paying now for their possible FUTURE claim isnt being realistic, because there is no guarantee

If people bought life insurance with only the immediate future in mind, 30 year plans would be non existent. Instead, anecdotally I find they are the most common policy.

[skyguy918]

my only comparison to term LI was basically trying to say that each month is its own TERM LI... you pay your $28 premium and u get a payout if u drop dead in that month!

This is not how the type of term that most people buy works. What you're describing is closest to yearly renewable term, as opposed to level term.

[ExGingi]

Wiki updated.

[JACKBLUE]

Just heard from Arievim that one of the people that died from Covid19, left behind a big family, when he signed up originally he signed that he only wants to give and not get a payout if he dies because he had a nice amount of LI, in the last year he was struggling and left his LI lapse.
They are still deciding how to go about it.....
#JustSaying

[sillypainter]

Just heard from Arievim that one of the people that died from Covid19, left behind a big family, when he signed up originally he signed that he only wants to give and not get a payout if he dies because he had a nice amount of LI, in the last year he was struggling and left his LI lapse.
They are still deciding how to go about it.....
#JustSaying

What is there to decide. He is a member and deserves the payout.

[Lurker]

Just heard from Arievim that one of the people that died from Covid19, left behind a big family, when he signed up originally he signed that he only wants to give and not get a payout if he dies because he had a nice amount of LI, in the last year he was struggling and left his LI lapse.
They are still deciding how to go about it.....
#JustSaying

This bothers me so much. If they have to think about this for more than half a second, they have to stop claiming they are a tzedaka.