Areivim USA - Coronavirus

[mgarfin]

I’m not a basher, just a skeptic. Rough back of the napkin math discussed upthread tells me it doesn’t seem to add up.

There's Asher, keeps questioning if the org is sustainable.
Legit
(Although sometimes he is harsh)

good point

But there is Yodel, he keeps on pushing that this is all a fraud and someone is pocketing all the money.
He has no basses and even after first hand reports

[JACKBLUE]

I’m not a basher, just a skeptic. Rough back of the napkin math discussed upthread tells me it doesn’t seem to add up.

So do some real research not by asking random DDF’ers and come back to post what you heard.

[AsherO]

So do some real research not by asking random DDF’ers and come back to post what you heard.

I didn’t find anything that made me less skeptical. The burden of proof should be on the organization to be transparent/thorough, not for me to find someone’s uncle’s cousin’s dog who claims to know something and is likely less reliable than a random DDFer.

[michael]

I can confirm on the legal side that Areivim works very hard to be fully compliant. Can’t give specifics here, though you can PM for details and I can try to respond. Also cannot speak to the numbers as I’m not very involved on that side.

[ExGingi]

I didn’t find anything that made me less skeptical. The burden of proof should be on the organization to be transparent/thorough, not for me to find someone’s uncle’s cousin’s dog who claims to know something and is likely less reliable than a random DDFer.

I haven't been following the current conversation much, but if you put the numbers aside, and look at it purely as a good way to give צדקה to אלמנות and יתומים, do you still have issues of transparency, or is whatever information provided sufficient for you to decide that this is a legitimate צדקה?

[AsherO]

I haven't been following the current conversation much, but if you put the numbers aside, and look at it purely as a good way to give צדקה to אלמנות and יתומים, do you still have issues of transparency, or is whatever information provided sufficient for you to decide that this is a legitimate צדקה?

But they don’t publish what percentage of their members don’t expect/need payouts. If I signed up I would want to know they could fulfill their obligations to my family if ch”v it came to it. If the numbers don’t add up it’s a ponzi scheme.

[aygart]

But they don’t publish what percentage of their members don’t expect/need payouts. If I signed up I would want to know they could fulfill their obligations to my family if ch”v it came to it. If the numbers don’t add up it’s a ponzi scheme.

Which tzedaka is not a ponzi scheme with this reasoning?

[aygart]

I haven't been following the current conversation much, but if you put the numbers aside, and look at it purely as a good way to give צדקה to אלמנות and יתומים, do you still have issues of transparency, or is whatever information provided sufficient for you to decide that this is a legitimate צדקה?

And with this they "feel" like it is deserved and not like they are receiving tzedaka which makes it a higher form of tzedaka.

[Yosel]

Which tzedaka is not a ponzi scheme with this reasoning?

absolutely, but a lot of innocent families rely on this program (panzi scheme). and is not fair

[ExGingi]

absolutely, but a lot of innocent families rely on this program (panzi scheme). and is not fair

אין לנו על מי להשען אלא על אבינו שבשמים.

[AsherO]

Which tzedaka is not a ponzi scheme with this reasoning?

My understanding is that they claim to take in enough to cover claims. Please CMIIW.

I don’t know of any other charity that only supports their own donors, so asking me about other charities isn’t an apples-to-apples comparison.

[yesitsme]

I’m not a basher, just a skeptic. Rough back of the napkin math discussed upthread tells me it doesn’t seem to add up.

Could you please summarize your concerns? I'll do my best to get you the answers bl'n

[tov hashem]

I personally know of a family of 8 who areivim denied funds for them because they claimed that when he signed up he had some condition on his records (you have to sign that your healthy) of which statistics show that it could lead to cancer which he eventually got and fully recovered and then died from something else. I respect the decision made by areivims rabbi (big professional in medical). but the issue is that this yingerman had peace of mind knowing that he has some sort of Insurance, VS real LI where if they accept you by blood test means they cant screw you later on. (Check out the online application.)

[yuneeq]

I personally know of a family of 8 who areivim denied funds for them because they claimed that when he signed up he had some condition on his records (you have to sign that your healthy) of which statistics show that it could lead to cancer which he eventually got and fully recovered and then died from something else. I respect the decision made by areivims rabbi (big professional in medical). but the issue is that this yingerman had peace of mind thinking that he has some sort of Insurance, VS real LI where if they accept you by blood test means they cant screw you later on. (Check out the online application.)

FTFY
The issue is that someone with 8 children and a significant medical issue could have peace of mind after signing up for a charity program without reading the basic terms. And real insurance companies can in fact come after you within a certain time span if you lied on your application.

Take a look at the Areivim sign up page. Doesn’t get clearer than this:

-Husband feels well, does not have any significant medical issues and has no history or suspicion of significant medical issues.

-Wife feels well, does not have any significant medical issues and has no history or suspicion of significant medical issues.

http://www.areivim.info/rform.php

[yuneeq]

My understanding is that they claim to take in enough to cover claims. Please CMIIW.

I don’t know of any other charity that only supports their own donors, so asking me about other charities isn’t an apples-to-apples comparison.

It’s actually really simple and covered in their terms

“20) The full collection of $100,000 per orphan is based on the membership of approximately 14,500 families which constitutes the group. In the event that a member’s death occurs before the group is complete, the collection total will be adjusted downward accordingly.“

[aygart]

I personally know of a family of 8 who areivim denied funds for them because they claimed that when he signed up he had some condition on his records (you have to sign that your healthy) of which statistics show that it could lead to cancer which he eventually got and fully recovered and then died from something else. I respect the decision made by areivims rabbi (big professional in medical). but the issue is that this yingerman had peace of mind knowing that he has some sort of Insurance, VS real LI where if they accept you by blood test means they cant screw you later on. (Check out the online application.)

Why didn't he buy life insurance? Was it because he was uninsurable because of this condition? If yes, that clearly violates the terms and for them to pay out to them would undermine the entire system. This story actually gives me more confidence in the program not less.

[ExGingi]

Why didn't he buy life insurance? Was it because he was uninsurable because of this condition? If yes, that clearly violates the terms and for them to pay out to them would undermine the entire system. This story actually gives me more confidence in the program not less.

Though the plight of the uninsurable definitely exists, maybe they should look into creating a sub-program for the uninsurable with graded benefits (or personal pay-in to uninsurable risk pool). IDK I am not an actuary, but since it is not restricted by state insurance laws, maybe something reasonable could be devised.

[tov hashem]

Why didn't he buy life insurance? Was it because he was uninsurable because of this condition? If yes, that clearly violates the terms and for them to pay out to them would undermine the entire system. This story actually gives me more confidence in the program not less.

he would definitely be eligible for life insurance

[aygart]

he would definitely be eligible for life insurance

So then why didn't he get some?

[yfr bachur]

I personally know of a family of 8 who areivim denied funds for them because they claimed that when he signed up he had some condition on his records (you have to sign that your healthy) of which statistics show that it could lead to cancer which he eventually got and fully recovered and then died from something else. I respect the decision made by areivims rabbi (big professional in medical). but the issue is that this yingerman had peace of mind knowing that he has some sort of Insurance, VS real LI where if they accept you by blood test means they cant screw you later on. (Check out the online application.)

Random Question: Did Areivim charge all it members when he died? if yes, what happened to that money?