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The substantial substance of your sustained subsistent substance has subdued me into subversion.

« Last edited by Iz on May 05, 2020, 11:24:47 AM »

Author Topic: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)  (Read 44942 times)

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2020, 05:18:10 PM »
If the law allows it, it can't be that dangerous,
:o

Offline shiframeir

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2020, 05:46:25 PM »
Only Chazal have the right to make "lo plugs"
On what basis would you say that (shofet Asher beyamecha etc)? And in any event, even without “authority” we should learn from chazal and how they dealt with issues and realize for ourselves that even if I think I will be careful, maybe I will accidentally stray, or maybe when I do it someone else less careful will see me and do it and stray. Clear seichel. We are talking about dead bodies here all around us (I have so many mishnayos to do for friends dead parents I can’t learn what I want to learn!). This is not a time to be Meikel on venishmartem meod for a good minhag that we have been lucky enough to do regularly for a long time. We will get that back soon and do it for a very long time with our parents amen selah.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2020, 06:13:45 PM »
I just think they should be as strongly worded against people waiting in line for 45 minutes for pizza on motzei shabbos.

Offline shiframeir

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2020, 07:35:25 PM »
I just think they should be as strongly worded against people waiting in line for 45 minutes for pizza on motzei shabbos.
i don't think anyone disagrees with that  :). are people doing that these days?

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2020, 07:41:51 PM »
I just think they should be as strongly worded against people waiting in line for 45 minutes for pizza on motzei shabbos.
That's obvious already.

Offline mliebs1457

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2020, 08:06:05 PM »
 
Look at this comment on 5Townscentral

https://beta.5townscentral.com/2020/04/24/update-from-the-roshei-yeshivos-and-rabbanim-in-the-five-towns-far-rockaway-community/

Loyal 5T Resident April 26, 2020 At 10:50 am
Thank You. L’Kovod Chashuve Five Towns & Far Rockaway Rabbanim, I, like most of the community received the letter that was put out on Friday. It is indeed undeniable that the Coronavirus has taken a tremendous toll on the world at large and specifically Klal Yisrael. We have lost our rabbiem, grandparents, fathers, mothers, uncles and aunts. We are in a tremendous Eis Tzarah. While we have utmost Achrayos to uphold the Mitzvah in the Torah of “V’nishmartem m’eod lnafshosachem”, that does not mean we do not have to think in the way that the Torah teaches us to. It does not mean that we cannot be creative in trying to find ways to perform mitzvos under duress. The letter banning minyanim under any circumstance is draconian and too encompassing. It is also inconsistent with the lack of decrees against similar or worse situations that could spread this terrible disease. I’ll mention one: There is no denying that in this community there are hundreds, if not thousands of people, that have cleaning help coming to their house daily. It is overwhelmingly probable that cleaning ladies will transmit the disease. Did I see a letter about cleaning ladies coming to houses? Nope. In fact, a close friend of mine recently told me that when he asked his Rav about thi,s the Rav replied “I’ll have to look into it. I’m not sure there is anything to do about that.” Really? You seemed to be able to do something about minyanim! Instead of making blanked statements, why don’t we create solutions? After I davened in my home this Shabbos, I looked outside my window to see plenty of people on my block Shmuzing with the neighbors. Was anyone breaking the rules? Nope. They were responsible. Each of the three or four groups were socially distanced, some of them even wearing masks, and complying with all the rules. I mused to myself that the Ribono Shel Olam was probably very sad when he saw that people can’t Daven outside, yet they can Shmuz outside! Pikuach Nefesh does in fact override every Mitzvah in the Torah, but many Rabbanim outside of this community feel that if the minyanim are properly socially distanced, it is not deemed Pikuach Nefesh. Do the Rabbanim of this community not trust the people? You seem to trust them when it comes to going to restaurants and supermarkets. You trust them in every other facet of life. And you should. Why can the people not be trusted now? Every block will have one appointed member to be in charge, there will be no exceptions, any person who does not adhere to STRICT social distancing, will not be allowed to join the Minyan. There will be 3 set minyanim per day, no more. We can have police patrolling to make sure that everyone is adhering. (B”H this community is very well-connected governmentally). In fact, in Lakewood, the police do patrol the neighborhood to watch over the Minyanim. It can be done. We can do it. And while the Ratzon Hashem is to be very Makpid on Shmiras HaNefesh, we can be very careful while still davening with a minyan. I wonder if the Ratzon Hashem is to have no minyanim period. A prominent modern-orthodox Rabbi wrote on April 19, responding to the Lakewood Poskim, who are Tremendous Talmidei Chochomim and Yarei Shamayim. “The very fact that such a long winded essay is necessary to give license for outdoor minyanim is already an indication that this is a poor choice by those who created this document.” I hope that he does not criticize the letter he signed as long-winded. A poor choice? These are called guidelines. Is the long-winded text of the Bach and The Beis Yosef, “A poor choice”? Are tshuvos that are long- and winded from R’ Akiva Eiger a “poor choice”? No! This in fact the proof that the letter is sincere because it is based on halacha and da’as Torah! It is inexcusable for a Rabbi of that stature of to mock Talmidei Chachamim like that. We should in fact copy the Lakewood model, which has worked tremendously well. There are plenty of videos of the Lakewood porch Minyanim going around, and in every one of them it is seen that the people are adhering tremendously well. In fact, Lakewood Hatzalah has reported that the numbers of new Covid-19 admissions have significantly dropped in the past two weeks, despite the Porch Minyanim going on. In this community, the people have proven to follow the social distancing guidelines extremely well. This is well proven since hospital admissions have B”H dropped tremendously in the past 2 weeks in this community. The people of this community are clamoring to daven with a minyan again. We are clamoring, waiting, and longing to get back. We will do anything. We will social distance double the standard of the doctors. We will wear masks. We will check in with the doctors and Rabbanim.. Please trust us! Let us work together to make this happen safely, efficiently, sanitarily, and most importantly in a way that is Mekadesh Shem Shomayim. May we be zochech to see the end of this magefah with the coming of Moshiach B’mehaira B’yamainu Amen. Sincerely, A loyal Five Towns resident
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1853646/a-response-to-the-responder-of-the-5-towns-rabbis.html
A response

Offline coralsnake

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2020, 08:09:22 PM »
We should in fact copy the Lakewood model, which has worked tremendously well.
Not at all what Ive been hearing.
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Offline brodes18

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2020, 08:09:58 PM »

Offline coralsnake

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2020, 08:19:43 PM »
https://vosizneias.com/2020/04/26/tzanz-klausenberg-rebbe-who-wants-to-be-a-murderer-even-by-accident/

"Tzanz-Klausenberg Rebbe: ‘Who Wants To Be A Murderer Even By Accident?’


NEW YORK (VINnews) — The Tzanz-Klausenberg Rebbe of Boro Park harshly criticized people who are ignoring public health regulations and continuing to immerse in mikves and make public minyanim. (The rebbe was referring to males, as mikves for females have higher levels of hygiene.)


The rebbe, who is the brother of the Tzanz Rebbe of Netanya, Israel and son of the Shefa Chayim of Klausenberg, spoke at a special guidance talk for his Chasidim and said that those who show contempt for the regulations are “light-headed” people, since a person is not the owner of his body and has no right to harm himself, as it is written “one who knowingly causes his own death has no portion in the world to come.”

“Suddenly they are Tzadikim,” the rebbe said scornfully, adding that “are they such Tzadikim on other matters? The Torah warned specifically about guarding one’s body and soul and one who endangers himself is akin to one who detests the wishes of his Creator. There is no greater contempt than that.”

The rebbe stressed that “obviously praying with a minyan is very important but that is only when the situation allows for it.” He pleaded with his Chasidim: “Have mercy on yourselves and your families, look how many Jews have passed away. Have mercy on your fathers and mothers. Who wants to be a murderer, even by accident?

“I know that there are those that will say I am paranoid and that I have gone through something myself (the rebbe lost his mother to the coronavirus a few weeks ago). But to them I say: ‘It’s a Mitzvah to be a fool all one’s life and not commit one evil act all of one’s life.’ The halacha is that we desecrate the Shabbos for a sick person even for temporary respite meaning even if he will live another ten minutes, and here people are allowing themselves to show disrespect for the entire lives of others?”

The rebbe added that at the beginning when people did not understand the severity of the virus one could understand people not strictly following the regulations but at present when all have seen already the disastrous results we must be especially careful and only go out for essential purposes and after taking proper precautions as advised by doctors as well as maintaining maximum hygiene.

“Some people say that ’emissaries of mitzvas will not be harmed, and of course those who claim this are ignoramuses, since the gemara says that where their is a possibility of being harmed one may not place oneself in danger even for a mitzvah,” the rebbe added, concluding that “a person must do all in his power to protect his body and soul and not listen to all the fools and idiots who are immersing in mikves and in mikves for utensils. These people are genuine murderers.”
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Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2020, 09:32:34 PM »
Dear Friends,

The news on the COVID-19 front shows more and more signs that home isolation and social distancing have been effective measures toward leveling the curve. That gives us something to be genuinely hopeful about.

At the same time, this necessitates a very serious call for caution. We can easily lose what our hard work and sacrifice has won for our community and our society. My message today is about how essential it is to continue to do what we’re doing. Let us celebrate the signs of hope but not let them prevent us from accurately seeing the bigger picture.
 
I want to acknowledge the sacrifices we have already made, for a moment.
 
For working people, confinement away from the work place has been a real hardship on many levels. For many, it has impacted their earnings in a significant way.

For children and their parents, the closure of school buildings and the distance learning model have created tremendous stress.  It has been extremely challenging, as well, for teachers and principals, who have been forced to create digital learning systems in a matter of days. Zoom is a great tool, but it cannot possibly replace the classroom. School tuition collections are down because some parents are unable to afford their payments without steady income.

There is so much anxiety about the future, about whether and when we will return to life as we knew it before March 2020, or whether there will be a strange and limiting “new normal.”
 
We wonder whether kids will be able to return to school before the end of June. What about graduations? Will summer day camps and sleep away camps be able to open? We wonder whether our planned milestone events will take place.
 
So many plans are on hold. This is a source of tremendous stress.

We, along with many religious Americans, wonder when we can return to our houses of worship. We urgently want to be able to return to the synagogue for daily services as well as Shabbos services.

We have sacrificed a lot. We are ready to be done with all this sacrifice.
 
So it is tempting to seize upon the good news and to begin to relax the inconvenient restrictions. But this would be a grave error.
 
The Talmud in Shabbos 151b tells us that we desecrate the Sabbath to save the life of a day-old child so that the child will live to be able to observe many Sabbaths. When we desecrate a precious commandment in order to save a life (and in this case many lives), we do so with a belief in the infinite value of human life, and with the hope and belief that the sacrifice will ultimately lead to the exponential sanctification of that very commandment, through enabling its observance many, many, many more times. 

That is the situation we find ourselves in. We must be patient for as long as necessary in order to insure that once we relax restrictions, we will not be confronted with a second lethal surge. (Let me remind all of us that after restrictions were eased, there were two deadly surges in the 1918 Flu pandemic). If we are patient, we will have many good days ahead of us. We will be together for many more daily minyanim and Shabbos services, if only we remain patient now.

Last week, fifty-seven community rabbis sent a letter cautioning all of us to carefully follow the safety guidelines that our doctors unanimously issued. Only four rabbis did not sign.
 
Most of us are not physicians. COVID-19 is a medical problem that only capable physicians can responsibly address. This is not the domain of laymen or Rabbis.
 
In a separate letter, thirteen Five Towns Rabbis (all of whom signed the other letter) stated that we will only recommend returning to public services when our panel of distinguished doctors gives us a green light.

A well-meaning Five Towns Jew wrote a letter to Yeshiva World News criticizing the letter signed by the fifty-seven rabbis in which we intructed our constituents not to have any outdoor gatherings or services. He correctly points out that there are violations of the socializing rules in the streets and outside of food stores. He asks, why can't there be services as well?
 
But his premise is wrong. We teach our children that two wrongs don’t make a right. We all must be attentive to the guidelines. People who violate the guidelines could harm themselves and all of us. Because they err does not mean that we should encourage more errors even for reasons of piety – indeed, especially for reasons of piety. Our tradition discourages this emphatically.
 
The part of the letter that disturbed me the most is that it was anonymous. Only a coward criticizes others without identifying himself.

We continue to rely on a large panel of local doctors who are cardiologists, pulmonologists, infectious disease specialists, and COVID-19 ICU unit directors. They are all Orthodox Jews. They understand our physical as well as our religious needs. They, too, long to return to their shuls. They, too, are pained that the doors of our beautiful institutions remain shuttered.
 
And they are unanimous in cautioning us that we must continue home isolation, social distancing, regular hand washing, wearing gloves, masks, etc. They are unanimous in emphasizing the absolute necessity of refraining from any form of social gathering, whether indoors or outdoors.

Unfortunately, many of our citizens are not taking this seriously enough. People do not understand that even when they feel well they could be asymptomatic carriers of the disease. If they recovered from the disease and think that they are no longer carriers, they could be wrong. It is not yet known whether those who have recovered from COVID-19 are immune to future infection.
 
Failure to follow the unanimous guidelines of our distinguished doctors puts everyone at risk! This is a matter not only of individual health, but of public health.

To put it most directly, if you infect someone, you could inadvertently harm them very seriously. (This is especially true of  people who are known to be particularly vulnerable to serious manifestations of the disease). And public health teaches us that it doesn’t stop there. If you infect someone, then they can infect someone (or multiple people), and that person infects someone, and so on – and we have another outbreak where many can die. All from one source.

Hence, there can be no religious services indoors or outdoors. That includes in driveways, and parking lots, on lawns etc.
 
I want to have the opportunity to return to public prayer. I believe in it and I miss it as much as you do. We all want to go back to our synagogues immediately. But we cannot do that yet!

Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives are sincere in their desire to serve HASHEM. But they are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone else’s blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan.

I fully understand that there are safe ways to make public gatherings by abiding by proper social distancing rules and with masks and gloves. But that misses the point!! This matter is so serious that we must create an extra protective layer around it, just as Chazal added chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha.
 
Even if rules are relaxed on the premise of the community’s adherence to strict medical standards, they will be violated consistently, even if unintentionally. We all know how hard it is to actually remain 6 feet apart, and how we instinctively shift closer and closer to our fellow human beings. There will not be supervision. Everyone will create their own gatherings. We will inadvertently  socialize inappropriately. People will be infected. The numbers in the hospitals will spike and people will die. That is what the doctors tell us. I am sure none of us wants that to happen. In order for this isolation to work, everyone must comply until the doctors tell us that it is safe to do otherwise.

I know that my message has been grim. And we’ve all have enough of grimness. We so badly want to look forward to something good. So let me return to my opening words.  I encourage you to hold onto the signs of hope. They are there. They are real. And if we continue to follow these guidelines, they will not be taken away from us, as they likely will be if we fail to do so. It is so hard to be patient. (Anyone who knows me knows that I find it hard to be patient)! But if we do this, then a time will come, and I pray it is not too far away, when we will safely be able “to observe many Sabbaths in the future” together, with social closeness, in our beautiful shuls.

RHB

Young Israel of Woodmere

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2020, 10:08:19 PM »
Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right. But why are the Rabbanim only harping on minyan? Why aren't they signing a letter against help or lack of social distancing while shopping? Is it because they don't think people will listen? Or, more disturbing, do they think people care more about pizza than minyan so they can't say anything?
any argument against outdoor minyan can be used against pizza motzei shabbos

My take, the yetzer hara is working both sides of the aisle.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 10:30:09 PM by ushdadude »

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2020, 10:19:42 PM »
Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right. But why are the Rabbanim only harping on minyan? Why aren't they signing a letter against help or lack of social distancing while shopping? Is it because they don't think people will listen? Or, more disturbing, do they think people care more about pizza than minyan so they can't say anything?
My take, the yetzer hara is working both sides of the aisle.
Likely they think people are not interested in hearing their opinion on anything besides shuls

Offline sammyp

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2020, 10:38:39 PM »
This Billet fellow has a real leftist agenda.

First of all, out of the 57 signatories, many are not near the stature of the ones that did not sign. In addition, there were more than four that did not sign, and some that did "sign" say their signature was forged. Some of our greatest local Rabbis are either giving permission for people to have legal backyard minyanim, davening themselves by these minyanim, and some are even hosting them. I will not reveal their names, you can do your own homework. There are more than four.

Besides, this issue is issue is not exclusive to our community. In Brooklyn and Lakewood most Rabonim are permitting minyanim within the health guidelines. The police and government officials have visited many of those minyanim and gave their o.k.. In Eretz Yisroel almost everyone is davening in outdoor minyanim with permission of the government. All these places are following the guidance of their Rabonim. Their Rabonim also speak to medical professionals and decided it was fine. Our local doctors and some Rabbis are alarmists. Go listen to Dr. Glatts speech and you'll hear what an unrealistic alarmist he is. (The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) The true risk factor also plays a roll in Halacha.

I personally spoke to some of the signatories who told me there was heavy pressure from "the left" to sign. But even if 57 local Rabbis did sign. there are hundreds of very great reputable Rabbis who disagree with them. This is not merely a local issue. For Billet to declare "Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives... are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone else’s blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan" is total blasphemy and utter Chutzpah. Many of these Rabbis around the world are greater than he, and these 57 are definitely outnumbered.

The government regulations already take into account extra precautions. To add on to them is ridiculous. It ends up backfiring. Billet is not Chazal, and does not have the right to "add chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha". Especially when most Rabbis in the world disagree with him.

I know people are going to say"Well I know Rabbi so and so, and hes also against minyanim". But the truth is, some of the anti-minyan Rabbis are the vocal ones. The rest are just doing what they feel is the right thing, and telling their followers to do the same. I just got off the phone with a friend from Brooklyn. He told me there are four minyanim on his block, three times a day, all strictly adhering to social distancing rules. He told me that's what it like all over Brooklyn. They are not stupid. They also don't want to get sick. They keep all the rules strictly. And they are all under Rabbinic guidance.

I believe Billet missed the point of the letter writer on YeshivaWorld. His point was that for some reason the so called 57 signatories did not write a lengthy letter against cleaning ladies or shopping or the like. They only wrote about minyanim. At this point in time, shopping in our stores is far more dangerous than davening outside. There seems to be a clear agenda against minyanim. It's not only them. For example, the frum webstites post headlines about Rabbi Meir Stern from Passaic prohibiting minyanim, then post a letter from someone else in Passaic not even quoting Rabbi Stern with regards to the current situation! Fake Headline. They do it all the time.

Why do we have a local Rabbi calling the police and being moiser on another Rabbi who doesn't agree with him? Nothing illegal was being done. This conduct is unheard of! Rabbi Shternbauch just put out a very strong letter against being moser other people to the government. He says mesirah has always been from the worst aveiros a person can do. Probably even worse than davening with a minyan.

I understand there are great Rabbis who feel minyanim are a no-no. But those great Rabbis on not belittling those who disagree with them. They are not going on any campaign.

One of the great leaders in America recently spoke privately to his talmidim and slammed the anti-minyan campaign and called it all a maaseh satan. (The speech was not made public. It was over the phone on a hotline and not recorded. It was intended for his kehilah alone.) Somebody told me he spoke directly to Reb Dovid Feinstein who said if a Rov wants to conduct a legal outdoor minyan, he may do so.

So, stop the campaign! We respected you more before you started writing on websites and pushing your agenda. And btw, I assume the letter on YWN was written anonymously because the writer was afraid of Billet and his henchmen. The same reason many of the 57 signed the letter. Look what happened to some of those who did not sign. They are being ripped to shreds.

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2020, 10:49:08 PM »
Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right. But why are the Rabbanim only harping on minyan? Why aren't they signing a letter against help or lack of social distancing while shopping? Is it because they don't think people will listen? Or, more disturbing, do they think people care more about pizza than minyan so they can't say anything?
any argument against outdoor minyan can be used against pizza motzei shabbos

My take, the yetzer hara is working both sides of the aisle.

What the hell do Rabbis have to do with a pizza shop? Minyan is in the spiritual realm and ergo in the rabbis’ court. They are the rabbis of the shuls which have the minyanim.

Let’s try not to be idiotic all the time.

And wtf is your comment about yetzer harah on both sides? Are you saying Rabbi Finer’s yetzer harah got the better of him and he got lazy and decided he’s still not interested in going to minyan?

Why do we need to continuously be holier than tho? When did minyan become the new religion? Is it that it gives us the ability to escape the house a bit?

I’m honestly perplexed - our Rabbanim got together and said (based on medical advice) that it’s a sakanah now to daven with a minyan - and all of a sudden every shmoiger knows better and needs to daven with a minyan.

And how does the argument of there are dangerous situations in our community hold any salt? So we should make it more dangerous by having minyanim?

Pizza stores and people shmoozing are wrong and you should stay away from those people. If one really need/ a Rabbi to tell him how to live every step of his life then I cry for the generation of idiots we have created.

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2020, 11:05:20 PM »
This Billet fellow has a real leftist agenda.

First of all, out of the 57 signatories, many are not near the stature of the ones that did not sign. In addition, there were more than four that did not sign, and some that did "sign" say their signature was forged. Some of our greatest local Rabbis are either giving permission for people to have legal backyard minyanim, davening themselves by these minyanim, and some are even hosting them. I will not reveal their names, you can do your own homework. There are more than four.

Besides, this issue is issue is not exclusive to our community. In Brooklyn and Lakewood most Rabonim are permitting minyanim within the health guidelines. The police and government officials have visited many of those minyanim and gave their o.k.. In Eretz Yisroel almost everyone is davening in outdoor minyanim with permission of the government. All these places are following the guidance of their Rabonim. Their Rabonim also speak to medical professionals and decided it was fine. Our local doctors and some Rabbis are alarmists. Go listen to Dr. Glatts speech and you'll hear what an unrealistic alarmist he is. (The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) The true risk factor also plays a roll in Halacha.

I personally spoke to some of the signatories who told me there was heavy pressure from "the left" to sign. But even if 57 local Rabbis did sign. there are hundreds of very great reputable Rabbis who disagree with them. This is not merely a local issue. For Billet to declare "Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives... are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone else’s blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan" is total blasphemy and utter Chutzpah. Many of these Rabbis around the world are greater than he, and these 57 are definitely outnumbered.

The government regulations already take into account extra precautions. To add on to them is ridiculous. It ends up backfiring. Billet is not Chazal, and does not have the right to "add chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha". Especially when most Rabbis in the world disagree with him.

I know people are going to say"Well I know Rabbi so and so, and hes also against minyanim". But the truth is, some of the anti-minyan Rabbis are the vocal ones. The rest are just doing what they feel is the right thing, and telling their followers to do the same. I just got off the phone with a friend from Brooklyn. He told me there are four minyanim on his block, three times a day, all strictly adhering to social distancing rules. He told me that's what it like all over Brooklyn. They are not stupid. They also don't want to get sick. They keep all the rules strictly. And they are all under Rabbinic guidance.

I believe Billet missed the point of the letter writer on YeshivaWorld. His point was that for some reason the so called 57 signatories did not write a lengthy letter against cleaning ladies or shopping or the like. They only wrote about minyanim. At this point in time, shopping in our stores is far more dangerous than davening outside. There seems to be a clear agenda against minyanim. It's not only them. For example, the frum webstites post headlines about Rabbi Meir Stern from Passaic prohibiting minyanim, then post a letter from someone else in Passaic not even quoting Rabbi Stern with regards to the current situation! Fake Headline. They do it all the time.

Why do we have a local Rabbi calling the police and being moiser on another Rabbi who doesn't agree with him? Nothing illegal was being done. This conduct is unheard of! Rabbi Shternbauch just put out a very strong letter against being moser other people to the government. He says mesirah has always been from the worst aveiros a person can do. Probably even worse than davening with a minyan.

I understand there are great Rabbis who feel minyanim are a no-no. But those great Rabbis on not belittling those who disagree with them. They are not going on any campaign.

One of the great leaders in America recently spoke privately to his talmidim and slammed the anti-minyan campaign and called it all a maaseh satan. (The speech was not made public. It was over the phone on a hotline and not recorded. It was intended for his kehilah alone.) Somebody told me he spoke directly to Reb Dovid Feinstein who said if a Rov wants to conduct a legal outdoor minyan, he may do so.

So, stop the campaign! We respected you more before you started writing on websites and pushing your agenda. And btw, I assume the letter on YWN was written anonymously because the writer was afraid of Billet and his henchmen. The same reason many of the 57 signed the letter. Look what happened to some of those who did not sign. They are being ripped to shreds.

Ok now we’re have a &$@/ contest on the stature of Rabbis? 57 Rabbis signed the letter. Not sure where political affiliation gets involved. Rabbis Perr, Bender, Jeager, Feiner etc. Don’t do it for you? There are a handful of holdouts and I know personally that one of the holdouts is facing an uproar from his mispallelem who are calling for his job.

Why can’t we have nice things? Why can’t we have one time when the entire community gets together and says as one “we are going to take on a hardship so we don’t continue spreading diseases?!” Without it being an opportunity for some of to show off how much more we are “machshiv teffilah bitsibur” than our neighbor.

I do love the fact that you call Dr. Glatt an alarmist? Where is your medical degree from? Watsapp, DDF or FDU? The man is  CHAIRMAN DEPARTMENT OF MEDICINE, CHIEF, INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND HOSPITAL EPIDEMIOLOGIST at a local hospital directly dealing with COVID cases.
He gives a weekly update that is totally fact driven - you should give a listen.

Please let’s stop with yeshivesh boich sevaras. Ordinarily I could care less but let’s not kill people today, hmm?

Offline momo

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2020, 11:10:07 PM »
Fyi, arguably the biggest talmud chacham in the Far Rockaway 5 towns neighborhood, is on the forefront of the no minyan faction. I don’t understand the need to belittle someone by taking away his Rabbi title, and calling him Billet, throughout a post. We are all fed up, with being cooped up in our homes, and are chomping at the bit to get back to minyan, and normal activities. You can disagree, with something someone says, without the rest of the disparaging remarks.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2020, 11:13:10 PM »
What the hell do Rabbis have to do with a pizza shop? Minyan is in the spiritual realm and ergo in the rabbis’ court. They are the rabbis of the shuls which have the minyanim.

Let’s try not to be idiotic all the time.

And wtf is your comment about yetzer harah on both sides? Are you saying Rabbi Finer’s yetzer harah got the better of him and he got lazy and decided he’s still not interested in going to minyan?

Why do we need to continuously be holier than tho? When did minyan become the new religion? Is it that it gives us the ability to escape the house a bit?

I’m honestly perplexed - our Rabbanim got together and said (based on medical advice) that it’s a sakanah now to daven with a minyan - and all of a sudden every shmoiger knows better and needs to daven with a minyan.

And how does the argument of there are dangerous situations in our community hold any salt? So we should make it more dangerous by having minyanim?

Pizza stores and people shmoozing are wrong and you should stay away from those people. If one really need/ a Rabbi to tell him how to live every step of his life then I cry for the generation of idiots we have created.


The letter was written and signed as community leaders, not shul rabbis. So yes, if they think the community is doing something wrong they should say something about it. They also have sway over the vaad hakashrus. If they see something dangerous they can stop it.


My point about yetzer Hara, not talking about a specific Rav or medical professional advising them, is that there is ego involved and that makes coming to the correct conclusion more complicated.


I personally don't worship minyan and will listen to the letter even if I don't agree with it completely because that's Torah thing to do. I'm just sad by the conclusion.


For some reason I hit a nerve with you and I apologise if you took anything personally.

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2020, 11:26:52 PM »

The letter was written and signed as community leaders, not shul rabbis. So yes, if they think the community is doing something wrong they should say something about it. They also have sway over the vaad hakashrus. If they see something dangerous they can stop it.


My point about yetzer Hara, not talking about a specific Rav or medical professional advising them, is that there is ego involved and that makes coming to the correct conclusion more complicated.


I personally don't worship minyan and will listen to the letter even if I don't agree with it completely because that's Torah thing to do. I'm just sad by the conclusion.


For some reason I hit a nerve with you and I apologise if you took anything personally.

Sorry I usually try to avoid “frum” media and forums because of the heartache it causes but I checked in tonight and was blown away by how unhinged some of us have become.

I haven’t been to a pizza store in months so I can’t speak to what the lines are looking like but I do agree there was failure of leadership when it came to supermarkets - they should have gone delivery only right when this started - but I put that more on the “askanim” and the supermarkets themselves than the Rabbis.

I can’t speak to all 57 Rabbis but the ones I have the pleasure of knowing I would happily attest to the fact that I can guarantee that no ego was part of the decision not to have minyanim.

I think the situation is sad not the conclusion of the letter. Our community has been hit unbelievably hard by this. By way of reference we had a zoom meeting today with a substantial part of my firm and no one else knew anyone personally that had even gotten the virus let alone died. I knew over ten people that passed away from it. No question our minyanim and other large social gatherings was a large reason why.

There’s just been too much death already - let’s hold off until we are 100% sure that we won’t cause anymore. I don’t think this is an outlandish idea by any means.

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2020, 11:34:47 PM »

You might not agree with everything written or talked about but shame on your for talking this way about Talmidei Chachomim & Rabbanim.

Please read the Gemoras that talk about what will happen to your children if one talks this way about Talmidei Chachomim & Rabbanim.

Offline sammyp

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2020, 11:34:52 PM »

The letter was written and signed as community leaders, not shul rabbis. So yes, if they think the community is doing something wrong they should say something about it. They also have sway over the vaad hakashrus. If they see something dangerous they can stop it.


My point about yetzer Hara, not talking about a specific Rav or medical professional advising them, is that there is ego involved and that makes coming to the correct conclusion more complicated.


I personally don't worship minyan and will listen to the letter even if I don't agree with it completely because that's Torah thing to do. I'm just sad by the conclusion.


For some reason I hit a nerve with you and I apologise if you took anything personally.

Don't be so worried. People that talk (or write) like him don't belong davening with a minyan. Or using that mouth to daven altogether.

It's funny how we must respect Billet because he is anti minyan. But the Rov who has a minyan, and is also a massive Talmid Chochom. deserves to be overthrown by his mispaelilim?!? Doesn't make sense.

I did not take away his title Rabbi because he is believes having a minyan is dangerous. I did it because of his agenda. On another site Billet slammed four Lakewood Rabonim because they permitted porch minyanim. He also belittled a Lakewood Rosh HaYeshiva. Those Five people learn more and know more than Billet will ever learn or know. They have hundreds of Rabonim who consult with them and follow their every word. Their decision was made with heavy hearts and after consulting with many health professionals. Just because they came out with a different conclusion than Billet, he has absolutely no right to belittle them. A Rabbi does not do that. And a Rabbi is not moser his colleagues. I know from the inside what kind of pressure these leftists put on the Lakewood Rabbis. They kept to their decision because they felt it was the right thing to do.

A Rabbi doesn't degrade, belittle, and bully those who disagree with them. A Rabbi should realize there are two sides. And in this case, there are Rabbis on both sides acting like Rabbis. Billet is not one of them.

As a city "Rabbi" who runs the Vaad and other institutions, there are far worse things that need to be fixed than davening with a minyan. He should keep his opinions local, in his shul, among those that follow him. Don't force it on the rest of the world.

As I said, in this case there happen to be more Rabbis permitting outdoor minyanim than those who prohibit. But I do understand there are two sides. Eilu V'eillu...