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« Last edited by Iz on May 05, 2020, 11:24:47 AM »

Author Topic: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)  (Read 18174 times)

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2020, 10:08:19 PM »
Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right. But why are the Rabbanim only harping on minyan? Why aren't they signing a letter against help or lack of social distancing while shopping? Is it because they don't think people will listen? Or, more disturbing, do they think people care more about pizza than minyan so they can't say anything?
any argument against outdoor minyan can be used against pizza motzei shabbos

My take, the yetzer hara is working both sides of the aisle.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 10:30:09 PM by ushdadude »
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2020, 10:19:42 PM »
Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right. But why are the Rabbanim only harping on minyan? Why aren't they signing a letter against help or lack of social distancing while shopping? Is it because they don't think people will listen? Or, more disturbing, do they think people care more about pizza than minyan so they can't say anything?
My take, the yetzer hara is working both sides of the aisle.
Likely they think people are not interested in hearing their opinion on anything besides shuls

Offline sammyp

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2020, 10:38:39 PM »
This Billet fellow has a real leftist agenda.

First of all, out of the 57 signatories, many are not near the stature of the ones that did not sign. In addition, there were more than four that did not sign, and some that did "sign" say their signature was forged. Some of our greatest local Rabbis are either giving permission for people to have legal backyard minyanim, davening themselves by these minyanim, and some are even hosting them. I will not reveal their names, you can do your own homework. There are more than four.

Besides, this issue is issue is not exclusive to our community. In Brooklyn and Lakewood most Rabonim are permitting minyanim within the health guidelines. The police and government officials have visited many of those minyanim and gave their o.k.. In Eretz Yisroel almost everyone is davening in outdoor minyanim with permission of the government. All these places are following the guidance of their Rabonim. Their Rabonim also speak to medical professionals and decided it was fine. Our local doctors and some Rabbis are alarmists. Go listen to Dr. Glatts speech and you'll hear what an unrealistic alarmist he is. (The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) The true risk factor also plays a roll in Halacha.

I personally spoke to some of the signatories who told me there was heavy pressure from "the left" to sign. But even if 57 local Rabbis did sign. there are hundreds of very great reputable Rabbis who disagree with them. This is not merely a local issue. For Billet to declare "Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives... are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone elseís blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan" is total blasphemy and utter Chutzpah. Many of these Rabbis around the world are greater than he, and these 57 are definitely outnumbered.

The government regulations already take into account extra precautions. To add on to them is ridiculous. It ends up backfiring. Billet is not Chazal, and does not have the right to "add chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha". Especially when most Rabbis in the world disagree with him.

I know people are going to say"Well I know Rabbi so and so, and hes also against minyanim". But the truth is, some of the anti-minyan Rabbis are the vocal ones. The rest are just doing what they feel is the right thing, and telling their followers to do the same. I just got off the phone with a friend from Brooklyn. He told me there are four minyanim on his block, three times a day, all strictly adhering to social distancing rules. He told me that's what it like all over Brooklyn. They are not stupid. They also don't want to get sick. They keep all the rules strictly. And they are all under Rabbinic guidance.

I believe Billet missed the point of the letter writer on YeshivaWorld. His point was that for some reason the so called 57 signatories did not write a lengthy letter against cleaning ladies or shopping or the like. They only wrote about minyanim. At this point in time, shopping in our stores is far more dangerous than davening outside. There seems to be a clear agenda against minyanim. It's not only them. For example, the frum webstites post headlines about Rabbi Meir Stern from Passaic prohibiting minyanim, then post a letter from someone else in Passaic not even quoting Rabbi Stern with regards to the current situation! Fake Headline. They do it all the time.

Why do we have a local Rabbi calling the police and being moiser on another Rabbi who doesn't agree with him? Nothing illegal was being done. This conduct is unheard of! Rabbi Shternbauch just put out a very strong letter against being moser other people to the government. He says mesirah has always been from the worst aveiros a person can do. Probably even worse than davening with a minyan.

I understand there are great Rabbis who feel minyanim are a no-no. But those great Rabbis on not belittling those who disagree with them. They are not going on any campaign.

One of the great leaders in America recently spoke privately to his talmidim and slammed the anti-minyan campaign and called it all a maaseh satan. (The speech was not made public. It was over the phone on a hotline and not recorded. It was intended for his kehilah alone.) Somebody told me he spoke directly to Reb Dovid Feinstein who said if a Rov wants to conduct a legal outdoor minyan, he may do so.

So, stop the campaign! We respected you more before you started writing on websites and pushing your agenda. And btw, I assume the letter on YWN was written anonymously because the writer was afraid of Billet and his henchmen. The same reason many of the 57 signed the letter. Look what happened to some of those who did not sign. They are being ripped to shreds.

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2020, 10:49:08 PM »
Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right. But why are the Rabbanim only harping on minyan? Why aren't they signing a letter against help or lack of social distancing while shopping? Is it because they don't think people will listen? Or, more disturbing, do they think people care more about pizza than minyan so they can't say anything?
any argument against outdoor minyan can be used against pizza motzei shabbos

My take, the yetzer hara is working both sides of the aisle.

What the hell do Rabbis have to do with a pizza shop? Minyan is in the spiritual realm and ergo in the rabbisí court. They are the rabbis of the shuls which have the minyanim.

Letís try not to be idiotic all the time.

And wtf is your comment about yetzer harah on both sides? Are you saying Rabbi Finerís yetzer harah got the better of him and he got lazy and decided heís still not interested in going to minyan?

Why do we need to continuously be holier than tho? When did minyan become the new religion? Is it that it gives us the ability to escape the house a bit?

Iím honestly perplexed - our Rabbanim got together and said (based on medical advice) that itís a sakanah now to daven with a minyan - and all of a sudden every shmoiger knows better and needs to daven with a minyan.

And how does the argument of there are dangerous situations in our community hold any salt? So we should make it more dangerous by having minyanim?

Pizza stores and people shmoozing are wrong and you should stay away from those people. If one really need/ a Rabbi to tell him how to live every step of his life then I cry for the generation of idiots we have created.

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2020, 11:05:20 PM »
This Billet fellow has a real leftist agenda.

First of all, out of the 57 signatories, many are not near the stature of the ones that did not sign. In addition, there were more than four that did not sign, and some that did "sign" say their signature was forged. Some of our greatest local Rabbis are either giving permission for people to have legal backyard minyanim, davening themselves by these minyanim, and some are even hosting them. I will not reveal their names, you can do your own homework. There are more than four.

Besides, this issue is issue is not exclusive to our community. In Brooklyn and Lakewood most Rabonim are permitting minyanim within the health guidelines. The police and government officials have visited many of those minyanim and gave their o.k.. In Eretz Yisroel almost everyone is davening in outdoor minyanim with permission of the government. All these places are following the guidance of their Rabonim. Their Rabonim also speak to medical professionals and decided it was fine. Our local doctors and some Rabbis are alarmists. Go listen to Dr. Glatts speech and you'll hear what an unrealistic alarmist he is. (The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) The true risk factor also plays a roll in Halacha.

I personally spoke to some of the signatories who told me there was heavy pressure from "the left" to sign. But even if 57 local Rabbis did sign. there are hundreds of very great reputable Rabbis who disagree with them. This is not merely a local issue. For Billet to declare "Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives... are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone else’s blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan" is total blasphemy and utter Chutzpah. Many of these Rabbis around the world are greater than he, and these 57 are definitely outnumbered.

The government regulations already take into account extra precautions. To add on to them is ridiculous. It ends up backfiring. Billet is not Chazal, and does not have the right to "add chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha". Especially when most Rabbis in the world disagree with him.

I know people are going to say"Well I know Rabbi so and so, and hes also against minyanim". But the truth is, some of the anti-minyan Rabbis are the vocal ones. The rest are just doing what they feel is the right thing, and telling their followers to do the same. I just got off the phone with a friend from Brooklyn. He told me there are four minyanim on his block, three times a day, all strictly adhering to social distancing rules. He told me that's what it like all over Brooklyn. They are not stupid. They also don't want to get sick. They keep all the rules strictly. And they are all under Rabbinic guidance.

I believe Billet missed the point of the letter writer on YeshivaWorld. His point was that for some reason the so called 57 signatories did not write a lengthy letter against cleaning ladies or shopping or the like. They only wrote about minyanim. At this point in time, shopping in our stores is far more dangerous than davening outside. There seems to be a clear agenda against minyanim. It's not only them. For example, the frum webstites post headlines about Rabbi Meir Stern from Passaic prohibiting minyanim, then post a letter from someone else in Passaic not even quoting Rabbi Stern with regards to the current situation! Fake Headline. They do it all the time.

Why do we have a local Rabbi calling the police and being moiser on another Rabbi who doesn't agree with him? Nothing illegal was being done. This conduct is unheard of! Rabbi Shternbauch just put out a very strong letter against being moser other people to the government. He says mesirah has always been from the worst aveiros a person can do. Probably even worse than davening with a minyan.

I understand there are great Rabbis who feel minyanim are a no-no. But those great Rabbis on not belittling those who disagree with them. They are not going on any campaign.

One of the great leaders in America recently spoke privately to his talmidim and slammed the anti-minyan campaign and called it all a maaseh satan. (The speech was not made public. It was over the phone on a hotline and not recorded. It was intended for his kehilah alone.) Somebody told me he spoke directly to Reb Dovid Feinstein who said if a Rov wants to conduct a legal outdoor minyan, he may do so.

So, stop the campaign! We respected you more before you started writing on websites and pushing your agenda. And btw, I assume the letter on YWN was written anonymously because the writer was afraid of Billet and his henchmen. The same reason many of the 57 signed the letter. Look what happened to some of those who did not sign. They are being ripped to shreds.

Ok now we’re have a &$@/ contest on the stature of Rabbis? 57 Rabbis signed the letter. Not sure where political affiliation gets involved. Rabbis Perr, Bender, Jeager, Feiner etc. Don’t do it for you? There are a handful of holdouts and I know personally that one of the holdouts is facing an uproar from his mispallelem who are calling for his job.

Why can’t we have nice things? Why can’t we have one time when the entire community gets together and says as one “we are going to take on a hardship so we don’t continue spreading diseases?!” Without it being an opportunity for some of to show off how much more we are “machshiv teffilah bitsibur” than our neighbor.

I do love the fact that you call Dr. Glatt an alarmist? Where is your medical degree from? Watsapp, DDF or FDU? The man is  CHAIRMAN DEPARTMENT OF MEDICINE, CHIEF, INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND HOSPITAL EPIDEMIOLOGIST at a local hospital directly dealing with COVID cases.
He gives a weekly update that is totally fact driven - you should give a listen.

Please let’s stop with yeshivesh boich sevaras. Ordinarily I could care less but let’s not kill people today, hmm?

Offline momo

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2020, 11:10:07 PM »
Fyi, arguably the biggest talmud chacham in the Far Rockaway 5 towns neighborhood, is on the forefront of the no minyan faction. I donít understand the need to belittle someone by taking away his Rabbi title, and calling him Billet, throughout a post. We are all fed up, with being cooped up in our homes, and are chomping at the bit to get back to minyan, and normal activities. You can disagree, with something someone says, without the rest of the disparaging remarks.

Offline ushdadude

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2020, 11:13:10 PM »
What the hell do Rabbis have to do with a pizza shop? Minyan is in the spiritual realm and ergo in the rabbis’ court. They are the rabbis of the shuls which have the minyanim.

Let’s try not to be idiotic all the time.

And wtf is your comment about yetzer harah on both sides? Are you saying Rabbi Finer’s yetzer harah got the better of him and he got lazy and decided he’s still not interested in going to minyan?

Why do we need to continuously be holier than tho? When did minyan become the new religion? Is it that it gives us the ability to escape the house a bit?

I’m honestly perplexed - our Rabbanim got together and said (based on medical advice) that it’s a sakanah now to daven with a minyan - and all of a sudden every shmoiger knows better and needs to daven with a minyan.

And how does the argument of there are dangerous situations in our community hold any salt? So we should make it more dangerous by having minyanim?

Pizza stores and people shmoozing are wrong and you should stay away from those people. If one really need/ a Rabbi to tell him how to live every step of his life then I cry for the generation of idiots we have created.


The letter was written and signed as community leaders, not shul rabbis. So yes, if they think the community is doing something wrong they should say something about it. They also have sway over the vaad hakashrus. If they see something dangerous they can stop it.


My point about yetzer Hara, not talking about a specific Rav or medical professional advising them, is that there is ego involved and that makes coming to the correct conclusion more complicated.


I personally don't worship minyan and will listen to the letter even if I don't agree with it completely because that's Torah thing to do. I'm just sad by the conclusion.


For some reason I hit a nerve with you and I apologise if you took anything personally.
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2020, 11:26:52 PM »

The letter was written and signed as community leaders, not shul rabbis. So yes, if they think the community is doing something wrong they should say something about it. They also have sway over the vaad hakashrus. If they see something dangerous they can stop it.


My point about yetzer Hara, not talking about a specific Rav or medical professional advising them, is that there is ego involved and that makes coming to the correct conclusion more complicated.


I personally don't worship minyan and will listen to the letter even if I don't agree with it completely because that's Torah thing to do. I'm just sad by the conclusion.


For some reason I hit a nerve with you and I apologise if you took anything personally.

Sorry I usually try to avoid “frum” media and forums because of the heartache it causes but I checked in tonight and was blown away by how unhinged some of us have become.

I haven’t been to a pizza store in months so I can’t speak to what the lines are looking like but I do agree there was failure of leadership when it came to supermarkets - they should have gone delivery only right when this started - but I put that more on the “askanim” and the supermarkets themselves than the Rabbis.

I can’t speak to all 57 Rabbis but the ones I have the pleasure of knowing I would happily attest to the fact that I can guarantee that no ego was part of the decision not to have minyanim.

I think the situation is sad not the conclusion of the letter. Our community has been hit unbelievably hard by this. By way of reference we had a zoom meeting today with a substantial part of my firm and no one else knew anyone personally that had even gotten the virus let alone died. I knew over ten people that passed away from it. No question our minyanim and other large social gatherings was a large reason why.

There’s just been too much death already - let’s hold off until we are 100% sure that we won’t cause anymore. I don’t think this is an outlandish idea by any means.

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2020, 11:34:47 PM »

You might not agree with everything written or talked about but shame on your for talking this way about Talmidei Chachomim & Rabbanim.

Please read the Gemoras that talk about what will happen to your children if one talks this way about Talmidei Chachomim & Rabbanim.

Offline sammyp

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2020, 11:34:52 PM »

The letter was written and signed as community leaders, not shul rabbis. So yes, if they think the community is doing something wrong they should say something about it. They also have sway over the vaad hakashrus. If they see something dangerous they can stop it.


My point about yetzer Hara, not talking about a specific Rav or medical professional advising them, is that there is ego involved and that makes coming to the correct conclusion more complicated.


I personally don't worship minyan and will listen to the letter even if I don't agree with it completely because that's Torah thing to do. I'm just sad by the conclusion.


For some reason I hit a nerve with you and I apologise if you took anything personally.

Don't be so worried. People that talk (or write) like him don't belong davening with a minyan. Or using that mouth to daven altogether.

It's funny how we must respect Billet because he is anti minyan. But the Rov who has a minyan, and is also a massive Talmid Chochom. deserves to be overthrown by his mispaelilim?!? Doesn't make sense.

I did not take away his title Rabbi because he is believes having a minyan is dangerous. I did it because of his agenda. On another site Billet slammed four Lakewood Rabonim because they permitted porch minyanim. He also belittled a Lakewood Rosh HaYeshiva. Those Five people learn more and know more than Billet will ever learn or know. They have hundreds of Rabonim who consult with them and follow their every word. Their decision was made with heavy hearts and after consulting with many health professionals. Just because they came out with a different conclusion than Billet, he has absolutely no right to belittle them. A Rabbi does not do that. And a Rabbi is not moser his colleagues. I know from the inside what kind of pressure these leftists put on the Lakewood Rabbis. They kept to their decision because they felt it was the right thing to do.

A Rabbi doesn't degrade, belittle, and bully those who disagree with them. A Rabbi should realize there are two sides. And in this case, there are Rabbis on both sides acting like Rabbis. Billet is not one of them.

As a city "Rabbi" who runs the Vaad and other institutions, there are far worse things that need to be fixed than davening with a minyan. He should keep his opinions local, in his shul, among those that follow him. Don't force it on the rest of the world.

As I said, in this case there happen to be more Rabbis permitting outdoor minyanim than those who prohibit. But I do understand there are two sides. Eilu V'eillu...

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2020, 11:39:04 PM »
Don't be so worried. People that talk (or write) like him don't belong davening with a minyan. Or using that mouth to daven altogether.

It's funny how we must respect Billet because he is anti minyan. But the Rov who has a minyan, and is also a massive Talmid Chochom. deserves to be overthrown by his mispaelilim?!? Doesn't make sense.

I did not take away his title Rabbi because he is believes having a minyan is dangerous. I did it because of his agenda. On another site Billet slammed four Lakewood Rabonim because they permitted porch minyanim. He also belittled a Lakewood Rosh HaYeshiva. Those Five people learn more and know more than Billet will ever learn or know. They have hundreds of Rabonim who consult with them and follow their every word. Their decision was made with heavy hearts and after consulting with many health professionals. Just because they came out with a different conclusion than Billet, he has absolutely no right to belittle them. A Rabbi does not do that. And a Rabbi is not moser his colleagues. I know from the inside what kind of pressure these leftists put on the Lakewood Rabbis. They kept to their decision because they felt it was the right thing to do.

A Rabbi doesn't degrade, belittle, and bully those who disagree with them. A Rabbi should realize there are two sides. And in this case, there are Rabbis on both sides acting like Rabbis. Billet is not one of them.

As a city "Rabbi" who runs the Vaad and other institutions, there are far worse things that need to be fixed than davening with a minyan. He should keep his opinions local, in his shul, among those that follow him. Don't force it on the rest of the world.

As I said, in this case there happen to be more Rabbis permitting outdoor minyanim than those who prohibit. But I do understand there are two sides. Eilu V'eillu...
Do you really believe this idiocy


(The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) 
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2020, 11:42:54 PM »
Don't be so worried. People that talk (or write) like him don't belong davening with a minyan. Or using that mouth to daven altogether.

It's funny how we must respect Billet because he is anti minyan. But the Rov who has a minyan, and is also a massive Talmid Chochom. deserves to be overthrown by his mispaelilim?!? Doesn't make sense.

I did not take away his title Rabbi because he is believes having a minyan is dangerous. I did it because of his agenda. On another site Billet slammed four Lakewood Rabonim because they permitted porch minyanim. He also belittled a Lakewood Rosh HaYeshiva. Those Five people learn more and know more than Billet will ever learn or know. They have hundreds of Rabonim who consult with them and follow their every word. Their decision was made with heavy hearts and after consulting with many health professionals. Just because they came out with a different conclusion than Billet, he has absolutely no right to belittle them. A Rabbi does not do that. And a Rabbi is not moser his colleagues. I know from the inside what kind of pressure these leftists put on the Lakewood Rabbis. They kept to their decision because they felt it was the right thing to do.

A Rabbi doesn't degrade, belittle, and bully those who disagree with them. A Rabbi should realize there are two sides. And in this case, there are Rabbis on both sides acting like Rabbis. Billet is not one of them.

As a city "Rabbi" who runs the Vaad and other institutions, there are far worse things that need to be fixed than davening with a minyan. He should keep his opinions local, in his shul, among those that follow him. Don't force it on the rest of the world.

As I said, in this case there happen to be more Rabbis permitting outdoor minyanim than those who prohibit. But I do understand there are two sides. Eilu V'eillu...
You're nuts and your facts are wrong. Good night. Rest up my friend.

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2020, 12:15:22 AM »
You're nuts and your facts are wrong. Good night. Rest up my friend.
can you please elaborate?
I canít say I agree with everything, but to say there isnít 2 legit rabbinical opinions on this is being stuck in a little box.
What so hard to understand?

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2020, 12:47:47 AM »
can you please elaborate?
I canít say I agree with everything, but to say there isnít 2 legit rabbinical opinions on this is being stuck in a little box.
What so hard to understand?

Are there local medical experts saying itís ok to have minyanim? Is no one else sick of all the levayos and absolutely frightened of experiencing it again? Did Minyan become yaarog val yavor? This is not an abstract anymore we have all seen how deadly this is. 57 rabbis, chassidish, modern, yeshivesh old and young - got together and said based on medical expert advice - do not have any minyanim. This is is not a shailah of Halacha or hashkafah itís literally Pikuach nefesh. How can there be two sides?

Usually Iím a live and let live guy - but here you maybe literally killing others - what is the tzad to take that risk if the rabbonim and medial experts say not too. Do we need more dead? Do we not care for the elderly and the sick amongst us?

We can be michalal issuri deorasya for Pikuach nefesh - but a minyan not? I understand the strong desire to return to life as normal which for us - minyan is a very important part of it. But alas we cannot yet - hopefully soon we can have some sense of normalcy and minyan is some sort of form can start taking place again along with children returning to Yeshiva but all at the right time.

So hereís the problem with eilu veilue here - one eilu will kill people.




Offline yossig

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2020, 12:52:45 AM »
Are there local medical experts saying itís ok to have minyanim? Is no one else sick of all the levayos and absolutely frightened of experiencing it again? Did Minyan become yaarog val yavor? This is not an abstract anymore we have all seen how deadly this is. 57 rabbis, chassidish, modern, yeshivesh old and young - got together and said based on medical expert advice - do not have any minyanim. This is is not a shailah of Halacha or hashkafah itís literally Pikuach nefesh. How can there be two sides?

Usually Iím a live and let live guy - but here you maybe literally killing others - what is the tzad to take that risk if the rabbonim and medial experts say not too. Do we need more dead? Do we not care for the elderly and the sick amongst us?

We can be michalal issuri deorasya for Pikuach nefesh - but a minyan not? I understand the strong desire to return to life as normal which for us - minyan is a very important part of it. But alas we cannot yet - hopefully soon we can have some sense of normalcy and minyan is some sort of form can start taking place again along with children returning to Yeshiva but all at the right time.

So hereís the problem with eilu veilue here - one eilu will kill people.
you made a good case.
Do you think that there might be a possibility that a posek would look at it differently?