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The substantial substance of your sustained subsistent substance has subdued me into subversion.

« Last edited by Iz on May 05, 2020, 11:24:47 AM »

Author Topic: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)  (Read 33122 times)

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2020, 11:39:04 PM »
Don't be so worried. People that talk (or write) like him don't belong davening with a minyan. Or using that mouth to daven altogether.

It's funny how we must respect Billet because he is anti minyan. But the Rov who has a minyan, and is also a massive Talmid Chochom. deserves to be overthrown by his mispaelilim?!? Doesn't make sense.

I did not take away his title Rabbi because he is believes having a minyan is dangerous. I did it because of his agenda. On another site Billet slammed four Lakewood Rabonim because they permitted porch minyanim. He also belittled a Lakewood Rosh HaYeshiva. Those Five people learn more and know more than Billet will ever learn or know. They have hundreds of Rabonim who consult with them and follow their every word. Their decision was made with heavy hearts and after consulting with many health professionals. Just because they came out with a different conclusion than Billet, he has absolutely no right to belittle them. A Rabbi does not do that. And a Rabbi is not moser his colleagues. I know from the inside what kind of pressure these leftists put on the Lakewood Rabbis. They kept to their decision because they felt it was the right thing to do.

A Rabbi doesn't degrade, belittle, and bully those who disagree with them. A Rabbi should realize there are two sides. And in this case, there are Rabbis on both sides acting like Rabbis. Billet is not one of them.

As a city "Rabbi" who runs the Vaad and other institutions, there are far worse things that need to be fixed than davening with a minyan. He should keep his opinions local, in his shul, among those that follow him. Don't force it on the rest of the world.

As I said, in this case there happen to be more Rabbis permitting outdoor minyanim than those who prohibit. But I do understand there are two sides. Eilu V'eillu...
Do you really believe this idiocy


(The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) 
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2020, 11:42:54 PM »
Don't be so worried. People that talk (or write) like him don't belong davening with a minyan. Or using that mouth to daven altogether.

It's funny how we must respect Billet because he is anti minyan. But the Rov who has a minyan, and is also a massive Talmid Chochom. deserves to be overthrown by his mispaelilim?!? Doesn't make sense.

I did not take away his title Rabbi because he is believes having a minyan is dangerous. I did it because of his agenda. On another site Billet slammed four Lakewood Rabonim because they permitted porch minyanim. He also belittled a Lakewood Rosh HaYeshiva. Those Five people learn more and know more than Billet will ever learn or know. They have hundreds of Rabonim who consult with them and follow their every word. Their decision was made with heavy hearts and after consulting with many health professionals. Just because they came out with a different conclusion than Billet, he has absolutely no right to belittle them. A Rabbi does not do that. And a Rabbi is not moser his colleagues. I know from the inside what kind of pressure these leftists put on the Lakewood Rabbis. They kept to their decision because they felt it was the right thing to do.

A Rabbi doesn't degrade, belittle, and bully those who disagree with them. A Rabbi should realize there are two sides. And in this case, there are Rabbis on both sides acting like Rabbis. Billet is not one of them.

As a city "Rabbi" who runs the Vaad and other institutions, there are far worse things that need to be fixed than davening with a minyan. He should keep his opinions local, in his shul, among those that follow him. Don't force it on the rest of the world.

As I said, in this case there happen to be more Rabbis permitting outdoor minyanim than those who prohibit. But I do understand there are two sides. Eilu V'eillu...
You're nuts and your facts are wrong. Good night. Rest up my friend.

Offline yossig

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2020, 12:15:22 AM »
You're nuts and your facts are wrong. Good night. Rest up my friend.
can you please elaborate?
I canít say I agree with everything, but to say there isnít 2 legit rabbinical opinions on this is being stuck in a little box.
What so hard to understand?

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2020, 12:47:47 AM »
can you please elaborate?
I canít say I agree with everything, but to say there isnít 2 legit rabbinical opinions on this is being stuck in a little box.
What so hard to understand?

Are there local medical experts saying itís ok to have minyanim? Is no one else sick of all the levayos and absolutely frightened of experiencing it again? Did Minyan become yaarog val yavor? This is not an abstract anymore we have all seen how deadly this is. 57 rabbis, chassidish, modern, yeshivesh old and young - got together and said based on medical expert advice - do not have any minyanim. This is is not a shailah of Halacha or hashkafah itís literally Pikuach nefesh. How can there be two sides?

Usually Iím a live and let live guy - but here you maybe literally killing others - what is the tzad to take that risk if the rabbonim and medial experts say not too. Do we need more dead? Do we not care for the elderly and the sick amongst us?

We can be michalal issuri deorasya for Pikuach nefesh - but a minyan not? I understand the strong desire to return to life as normal which for us - minyan is a very important part of it. But alas we cannot yet - hopefully soon we can have some sense of normalcy and minyan is some sort of form can start taking place again along with children returning to Yeshiva but all at the right time.

So hereís the problem with eilu veilue here - one eilu will kill people.




Offline yossig

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2020, 12:52:45 AM »
Are there local medical experts saying itís ok to have minyanim? Is no one else sick of all the levayos and absolutely frightened of experiencing it again? Did Minyan become yaarog val yavor? This is not an abstract anymore we have all seen how deadly this is. 57 rabbis, chassidish, modern, yeshivesh old and young - got together and said based on medical expert advice - do not have any minyanim. This is is not a shailah of Halacha or hashkafah itís literally Pikuach nefesh. How can there be two sides?

Usually Iím a live and let live guy - but here you maybe literally killing others - what is the tzad to take that risk if the rabbonim and medial experts say not too. Do we need more dead? Do we not care for the elderly and the sick amongst us?

We can be michalal issuri deorasya for Pikuach nefesh - but a minyan not? I understand the strong desire to return to life as normal which for us - minyan is a very important part of it. But alas we cannot yet - hopefully soon we can have some sense of normalcy and minyan is some sort of form can start taking place again along with children returning to Yeshiva but all at the right time.

So hereís the problem with eilu veilue here - one eilu will kill people.
you made a good case.
Do you think that there might be a possibility that a posek would look at it differently?

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2020, 01:04:56 AM »
The letter was written and signed as community leaders, not shul rabbis.
Really?
...We would like to specifically address herein the numerous calls and requests that have been presented to all our community Rabbanim regarding outdoor Minyanim....Many individuals have been asking Rabbanim to demonstrate leadership... People are requesting that Rabbanim, in conjunction with medical professionals, create guidelines for safe and legal Minyanim in our neighborhoods...
We, the undersigned Rabbanim and Roshei Yeshivos...

56 Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbanim in the Five Towns/Far Rockaway/Bayswater Community- in alphabetical order:

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2020, 01:13:08 AM »
you made a good case.
Do you think that there might be a possibility that a posek would look at it differently?

I just donít see how. If the argument is but people are doing X and Y anyway so we should do Z thatís idiotic and I sure hope we donít have Poskim who think and pasken like that.

Are there qualified medical experts who are backing the other side up? I admittedly only spoke to one of the four holdouts (a Rabbi who I otherwise extremely respect and consider a good man) who said he did not consult with any expert but heís taking necessary precautions and then started ďthe what about XĒ argument.

I donít know - the whole situation absolutely sucks. But was there anything worse then 2/3 week period where there was just death after death? We have medical experts telling us itís getting better (because of what we are doing) but to not lighten up the restrictions yet. Why canít we just say - ok great news, we understand and please keep us updated? Do we need another wave of what we went through?


Offline sammyp

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2020, 05:35:19 AM »
I just donít see how. If the argument is but people are doing X and Y anyway so we should do Z thatís idiotic and I sure hope we donít have Poskim who think and pasken like that.

Are there qualified medical experts who are backing the other side up? I admittedly only spoke to one of the four holdouts (a Rabbi who I otherwise extremely respect and consider a good man) who said he did not consult with any expert but heís taking necessary precautions and then started ďthe what about XĒ argument.

I donít know - the whole situation absolutely sucks. But was there anything worse then 2/3 week period where there was just death after death? We have medical experts telling us itís getting better (because of what we are doing) but to not lighten up the restrictions yet. Why canít we just say - ok great news, we understand and please keep us updated? Do we need another wave of what we went through?

You keep on talking about the four hold outs. I already proved to you there more than four locally, and there are hundreds of Rabbis throughout the country and world who disagree.

The medical experts are the ones who set the federal laws and guidelines which are already over protective. Many medical experts feel the guidelines are overboard. That information is available with minimal research. It is an extremely complicated subject. I watched Dr. Glatts videos and he only presents one side of the arguement.

But I am saying to be cautious and follow Dr. Fauci and his team of experts and adhere to all his guidelines. It is these so called group of 57 who are making gezeoros and adding to the restrictions and disallowing legal safe gatherings. That is not universally excepted.

And again, even locally there are more than four holdouts. And there are no Chasidish Rabbis who signed.

Offline yossig

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2020, 10:52:46 AM »
I just donít see how. If the argument is but people are doing X and Y anyway so we should do Z thatís idiotic and I sure hope we donít have Poskim who think and pasken like that.
they might and Iím sure they do have different reasons than the one you stated. Some of the ones that are מתיר are known leading Rabonim in the medical field.

Quote
Are there qualified medical experts who are backing the other side up? I admittedly only spoke to one of the four holdouts (a Rabbi who I otherwise extremely respect and consider a good man) who said he did not consult with any expert but heís taking necessary precautions and then started ďthe what about XĒ argument.
Isnít that the reason that the necessary precautions were activated in the first place?
They are following the national guidelines set by top US doctors.
Quote
I donít know - the whole situation absolutely sucks.
Agreed
Quote
But was there anything worse then 2/3 week period where there was just death after death? We have medical experts telling us itís getting better (because of what we are doing) but to not lighten up the restrictions yet. Why canít we just say - ok great news, we understand and please keep us updated? Do we need another wave of what we went through?
these minyanim are in place since the beginning.

Offline ethana

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2020, 10:59:26 AM »
let's go back to talking about bingo opening

Offline reed

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2020, 11:03:09 AM »
they might and Iím sure they do have different reasons than the one you stated. Some of the ones that are מתיר are known leading Rabonim in the medical field.

What? Whom? What is a Leading Rabbi in the medical field? Is that better than a Doctor? Does this Rabbi have a better understanding of a brand new virus than the medical experts?

Isnít that the reason that the necessary precautions were activated in the first place?

Right - where we getting at here?

They are following the national guidelines set by top US doctors.Agreedthese minyanim are in place since the beginning.

Not following here either. There are National guidelines for minyanim?

Again ordinarily I could care less about what Yenem is doing but to advocate against a clear precedent established by 99% of the Rabbis and the leading doctors and you can potentially kill people - I donít understand the need to find loopholes and argue. We are talking about people dying - how is that not the end of the conversation?

Do you think Rabbi finer doesnít want to daven with a minyan? Rabbi Perr? Rabbi Jeager? Rabbi Brown? Our utmost respected and revered Roshei Yeshivas the ones we put our childrenís education in their hands, but they give a ruling based on medical experts that could potentially save lives and we all know better?

I am perplexed.

Offline sammyp

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2020, 11:48:09 AM »
Again ordinarily I could care less about what Yenem is doing but to advocate against a clear precedent established by 99% of the Rabbis and the leading doctors and you can potentially kill people - I donít understand the need to find loopholes and argue. We are talking about people dying - how is that not the end of the conversation?

Do you think Rabbi finer doesnít want to daven with a minyan? Rabbi Perr? Rabbi Jeager? Rabbi Brown? Our utmost respected and revered Roshei Yeshivas the ones we put our childrenís education in their hands, but they give a ruling based on medical experts that could potentially save lives and we all know better?

I am perplexed.

You are perplexed because you are so one-sided, you keep on repeating the same misinformation.

This is a worldwide issue, not a local one. At least 90% of the Rabinim with consultation with Health Experts feel there is nothing wrong with these minyanim. That is also the opinion of Dr. Fauci and his team of the top doctors in the the world.

True, there are very great Rabbis on the other side. But they are the minority. You must follow your Rabbi and not belittle those who don't agree with you. The Rabbis you mentioned are not belittling those who disagree with them.

If you saw are privy to see the letters and other communication from our local health experts to our Rabbis, you would be quite depressed. I saw these communications and understand based of that information why a Rabbi would prohibit minyanim. But according to these health experts, we must remain in quaranteen until a vaccine is developed and a full study is concluded. That means we will be home and society should be closed for another year and a half.

Ask your Rabbi to show you the communications they are getting their information from.

Most health officials in the world, including Trumps team are not so pessimistic. Other communities and their Rabinim are getting their advice from other experts. For your sanity, I would advise you to do the same. When I first saw some of the local communications, I was very down. Then I started to do some more research and became much more optimistic.

In addition, many things we do in life have a risk factor. Driving a car,, flying in an airplane,, going on a roller coaster, etc.. But when statistics hit a certain level, there is a concept of shomer pesayim which plays a big roll in Halacha. That was the original heter to smoke back in the day according to Reb Moahe Feinstein ztl. (And as an aside, it is more dangerous to smoke or vape than it is to daven with a minyan, and i didn't see any letters by our leaders banning smoking.) A Rabbi has a right to decide when we reach that level and make halachic decisions.

But as I already said, even the prohibiters agree there is nothing dangerous davening with a minyan keeping all lawful guidelines. They want to make extra gezeiros in addition to those required by law. That is an opinion which 90% of the Rabbis worldwide and here in America disagree with. Let people follow their own Rabbi. That is the right thing for each person to do.

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2020, 12:03:18 PM »
You are perplexed because you are so one-sided, you keep on repeating the same misinformation.

This is a worldwide issue, not a local one. At least 90% of the Rabinim with consultation with Health Experts feel there is nothing wrong with these minyanim. That is also the opinion of Dr. Fauci and his team of the top doctors in the the world.

True, there are very great Rabbis on the other side. But they are the minority. You must follow your Rabbi and not belittle those who don't agree with you. The Rabbis you mentioned are not belittling those who disagree with them.

If you saw are privy to see the letters and other communication from our local health experts to our Rabbis, you would be quite depressed. I saw these communications and understand based of that information why a Rabbi would prohibit minyanim. But according to these health experts, we must remain in quaranteen until a vaccine is developed and a full study is concluded. That means we will be home and society should be closed for another year and a half.

Ask your Rabbi to show you the communications they are getting their information from.

Most health officials in the world, including Trumps team are not so pessimistic. Other communities and their Rabinim are getting their advice from other experts. For your sanity, I would advise you to do the same. When I first saw some of the local communications, I was very down. Then I started to do some more research and became much more optimistic.

In addition, many things we do in life have a risk factor. Driving a car,, flying in an airplane,, going on a roller coaster, etc.. But when statistics hit a certain level, there is a concept of shomer pesayim which plays a big roll in Halacha. That was the original heter to smoke back in the day according to Reb Moahe Feinstein ztl. (And as an aside, it is more dangerous to smoke or vape than it is to daven with a minyan, and i didn't see any letters by our leaders banning smoking.) A Rabbi has a right to decide when we reach that level and make halachic decisions.

But as I already said, even the prohibiters agree there is nothing dangerous davening with a minyan keeping all lawful guidelines. They want to make extra gezeiros in addition to those required by law. That is an opinion which 90% of the Rabbis worldwide and here in America disagree with. Let people follow their own Rabbi. That is the right thing for each person to do.

Going to ignore most of the stupidity here but 😂 that medical experts gave advice which you found depressing so you disregarded it and went to the ol internet and found some more to your liking.

Offline Iz

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2020, 12:11:46 PM »
Going to ignore most of the stupidity here but 😂 that medical experts gave advice which you found depressing so you disregarded it and went to the ol internet and found some more to your liking.the actual arguments here, and misrepresent one part of them and make you sound silly.
FTFU

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2020, 12:43:11 PM »
let's go back to talking about bingo opening


No way! Did you see how irresponsible they were in terms of social distancing?
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline yossig

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2020, 01:29:40 PM »

Offline yelped

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2020, 04:03:12 PM »
FTFU
You're misrepresenting his words. He has a very valid point.

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2020, 04:10:26 PM »
Guys, let's keep this thread about FR/5T.

Mods, can we get a cleanup on our aisle?
Jury Duty: A time with nothing to do but chill and write a TR. Kinda like the beach without a view and an ocean breeze.

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2020, 11:36:13 AM »
This Billet fellow has a real leftist agenda.

First of all, out of the 57 signatories, many are not near the stature of the ones that did not sign. In addition, there were more than four that did not sign, and some that did "sign" say their signature was forged. Some of our greatest local Rabbis are either giving permission for people to have legal backyard minyanim, davening themselves by these minyanim, and some are even hosting them. I will not reveal their names, you can do your own homework. There are more than four.

Besides, this issue is issue is not exclusive to our community. In Brooklyn and Lakewood most Rabonim are permitting minyanim within the health guidelines. The police and government officials have visited many of those minyanim and gave their o.k.. In Eretz Yisroel almost everyone is davening in outdoor minyanim with permission of the government. All these places are following the guidance of their Rabonim. Their Rabonim also speak to medical professionals and decided it was fine. Our local doctors and some Rabbis are alarmists. Go listen to Dr. Glatts speech and you'll hear what an unrealistic alarmist he is. (The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) The true risk factor also plays a roll in Halacha.

I personally spoke to some of the signatories who told me there was heavy pressure from "the left" to sign. But even if 57 local Rabbis did sign. there are hundreds of very great reputable Rabbis who disagree with them. This is not merely a local issue. For Billet to declare "Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives... are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone elseís blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan" is total blasphemy and utter Chutzpah. Many of these Rabbis around the world are greater than he, and these 57 are definitely outnumbered.

The government regulations already take into account extra precautions. To add on to them is ridiculous. It ends up backfiring. Billet is not Chazal, and does not have the right to "add chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha". Especially when most Rabbis in the world disagree with him.

I know people are going to say"Well I know Rabbi so and so, and hes also against minyanim". But the truth is, some of the anti-minyan Rabbis are the vocal ones. The rest are just doing what they feel is the right thing, and telling their followers to do the same. I just got off the phone with a friend from Brooklyn. He told me there are four minyanim on his block, three times a day, all strictly adhering to social distancing rules. He told me that's what it like all over Brooklyn. They are not stupid. They also don't want to get sick. They keep all the rules strictly. And they are all under Rabbinic guidance.

I believe Billet missed the point of the letter writer on YeshivaWorld. His point was that for some reason the so called 57 signatories did not write a lengthy letter against cleaning ladies or shopping or the like. They only wrote about minyanim. At this point in time, shopping in our stores is far more dangerous than davening outside. There seems to be a clear agenda against minyanim. It's not only them. For example, the frum webstites post headlines about Rabbi Meir Stern from Passaic prohibiting minyanim, then post a letter from someone else in Passaic not even quoting Rabbi Stern with regards to the current situation! Fake Headline. They do it all the time.

Why do we have a local Rabbi calling the police and being moiser on another Rabbi who doesn't agree with him? Nothing illegal was being done. This conduct is unheard of! Rabbi Shternbauch just put out a very strong letter against being moser other people to the government. He says mesirah has always been from the worst aveiros a person can do. Probably even worse than davening with a minyan.

I understand there are great Rabbis who feel minyanim are a no-no. But those great Rabbis on not belittling those who disagree with them. They are not going on any campaign.

One of the great leaders in America recently spoke privately to his talmidim and slammed the anti-minyan campaign and called it all a maaseh satan. (The speech was not made public. It was over the phone on a hotline and not recorded. It was intended for his kehilah alone.) Somebody told me he spoke directly to Reb Dovid Feinstein who said if a Rov wants to conduct a legal outdoor minyan, he may do so.

So, stop the campaign! We respected you more before you started writing on websites and pushing your agenda. And btw, I assume the letter on YWN was written anonymously because the writer was afraid of Billet and his henchmen. The same reason many of the 57 signed the letter. Look what happened to some of those who did not sign. They are being ripped to shreds.

Even if you do or do not agree with him it is still Rabbi Billet who learnt under Rav Lichtenshtein. And for all those opposed to his opinion, when the YIW opens back up as a minyan factory that the whole community has come to enjoy, will you still go?  I am sure they all will.

Offline sammyp

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Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2020, 02:30:17 PM »
Even if you do or do not agree with him it is still Rabbi Billet who learnt under Rav Lichtenshtein. And for all those opposed to his opinion, when the YIW opens back up as a minyan factory that the whole community has come to enjoy, will you still go?  I am sure they all will.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the "whole community" does not go to his minyan factory. I personally went there once for a maariv when I was stuck. When I heard the kaddish coming from the ladies section I realized it was not for me.

It has nothing to do with his opinion. Many great Rabbis agree with him about the minyan issue. But anybody who publicly bashes five of our greatest and most respected leaders and poskim, just because they don't buy into his agenda, is not worthy of being called a Rabbi. Rabbi Lichtenshtein zt"l would have never done that. Nor would he have been moser other Rabbis who don't agree with him. Mesira is the next level and is prohibited under almost all circumstances. (In a teshuva written recently by Rabbi Shternbuch from Eretz Yisroel he writes one can only be moser if you know for sure that the person is positive, is not keeping distancing rules, and was warned first and does not listen. Otherwise, he writes there are severe ramifications for those who are moser.)