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« Last edited by Iz on May 05, 2020, 11:24:47 AM »

Author Topic: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)  (Read 33114 times)

Offline reed

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Dear Members,

Many of you will see a letter from Rabbonim sent to certain Shuls throughout the community regarding the limited allowance of "porch and front yard minyanim" under certain specific guidelines.  Based on the current medical reccomendations of Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt and other experts in the field, I do not recommend creating or attending these type of minyanim at this time.  Although adhering to the exact guidelines set forth by the Rabbinic letter poses minimal risk for the spread of Covid 19, there remains several reasons to oppose the practice.  The Covid 19 virus poses a unique and novel illness which has yet to be understood by even the most knowledgeable doctors in the field of infectious diseases.  Questions regarding the communication of the virus and the immunity of those who have already "recovered" from it remain unanswered.  An inevitable "second wave" of outbreak is predicted by most medical experts.  It is yet to be determined what results a relaxing of our current lockdown will yield.  Minyanim create a potent risk based on our social nature.  Many of them have been established against the recommendations of the local Rabbonim, with good intentions, with the plan of safe social distancing, only to eventually inadvertently breach proper safety protocols.  A telling example of this can be seen in hospitals which have strict protocols put in place and knowledgeable medical staff yet still have social breaches that have led to disasterous results.  In addition, we are also well aware of cases throughout the Torah world where disregard of social distancing rules aroused the hatred of our non-jewish neighbors.  These minyanim will only serve to increase that hatred. Therefore, I do not recommend any creation or participation in these "porch," "front yard," or any other minyanim until further notice.  I look forward and pray for a time when we will be able to convene together and daven as a unified Shul in the near future. 

Respectfully,

Asher Stern

Offline sammyp

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Or the Rabbanim they feel like have a better understanding of the gravity of the situation. Some of us may have felt the need to switch Rabbanim to our shailahs to based on questionable action that their usual rabbis took over the past couple of months.

If you switch your Rov when you don't agree with him, he was never really your Rov and you will never have a Rov. Al s'mol shehoo yemin...

Offline reed

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Offline reed

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If you switch your Rov when you don't agree with him, he was never really your Rov and you will never have a Rov. Al s'mol shehoo yemin...

R Leibowitz paskened that if someone’s Rav went against the Rabbanim and Doctors davened in minyan the past couple of months he is not allowed to ask this Rav to pasken shailos anymore.

Offline Afrages6

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R Leibowitz paskened that if someone’s Rav went against the Rabbanim and Doctors davened in minyan the past couple of months he is not allowed to ask this Rav to pasken shailos anymore.
If you have a way to ask. I am genuinely curious where he has the basis or standing to make such a psak?

Offline Yard sale

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If you switch your Rov when you don't agree with him, he was never really your Rov and you will never have a Rov. Al s'mol shehoo yemin...

Does that mean no one should ever switch a Rov because the Rov and his shitos  are always smol shehu yemin for you? I know of some leaders who were clearly told berachel bitcha heketana by communal doctors of what would happen if their and other community institutions and shuls were not closed and they chose to keep everything open  because “they didn’t have the pleitzus to close shuls etc”

Although they were not what I would call my Daas Torah prior to this, I did give a certain weight to their Daas and this situation is now factored into my descision when there is a difference of opinion going forward. I don’t think people ought to pick and choose their convenient psakim but there is nothing wrong with keeping ones eyes open and being open to adjust ones deos as one gains experience in life.

Offline ushdadude

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Trolls will always post stupid replies

Online aygart

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If you switch your Rov when you don't agree with him, he was never really your Rov and you will never have a Rov. Al s'mol shehoo yemin...
That can very much depend on the issue at hand.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

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Define Zakein Mamrei
Not this or anything close.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Afrages6

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https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/954045/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/from-the-rabbis-desk-status-of-a-rabbi-who-defies-community-corona-restrictions/
I listened to it and I don’t believe that he brought a source for the comments he made. Happy to listen again if you’re telling me I missed it.

Offline justaregularguy

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Dear Members,

Many of you will see a letter from Rabbonim sent to certain Shuls throughout the community regarding the limited allowance of "porch and front yard minyanim" under certain specific guidelines.  Based on the current medical reccomendations of Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt and other experts in the field, I do not recommend creating or attending these type of minyanim at this time.  Although adhering to the exact guidelines set forth by the Rabbinic letter poses minimal risk for the spread of Covid 19, there remains several reasons to oppose the practice.  The Covid 19 virus poses a unique and novel illness which has yet to be understood by even the most knowledgeable doctors in the field of infectious diseases.  Questions regarding the communication of the virus and the immunity of those who have already "recovered" from it remain unanswered.  An inevitable "second wave" of outbreak is predicted by most medical experts.  It is yet to be determined what results a relaxing of our current lockdown will yield.  Minyanim create a potent risk based on our social nature.  Many of them have been established against the recommendations of the local Rabbonim, with good intentions, with the plan of safe social distancing, only to eventually inadvertently breach proper safety protocols.  A telling example of this can be seen in hospitals which have strict protocols put in place and knowledgeable medical staff yet still have social breaches that have led to disasterous results.  In addition, we are also well aware of cases throughout the Torah world where disregard of social distancing rules aroused the hatred of our non-jewish neighbors.  These minyanim will only serve to increase that hatred. Therefore, I do not recommend any creation or participation in these "porch," "front yard," or any other minyanim until further notice.  I look forward and pray for a time when we will be able to convene together and daven as a unified Shul in the near future. 

Respectfully,

Asher Stern
thank you for this , with an actual name,

..and this.
nothings impossible- the word itself says Im possible

Offline ushdadude

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everyone should follow their rav and do what they feel comfortable with. and don't judge people who disagree with you for doing the same.
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline yitzgar

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and don't judge people

Good luck with that

Offline Yard sale

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If you switch your Rov when you don't agree with him, he was never really your Rov and you will never have a Rov. Al s'mol shehoo yemin...

There is a lot to say. There is an issue of some Rabbonim being more proficient or willing to delve into metzius than others. One Rov who is a tzaddik yesod olam  when asked a technology shayla several years back about his sons friends and DVDs was told “Ich veist nisht fun yenner zachen” This may be who you ask your issur viheter or hashkafa shaalos but should not be the one who is your final word in technology.

It’s an extreme example but is extremely relevant when relying upon any Rav for a shayla that is very much dependent in metzius. Some will not be proficient in metzius but will have their “go to guy” who has a better handle on metzius to run things by. Still there have been occasions where I’ve had to move heaven and earth to demonstrate to a Rov (and their go to guy) that the metzius is different. Sometimes I’ve had to work with a younger Rav who had the time and patience to run through the literature and speak to the experts in the field and then use that to present to the Rov. One has to know the limitations of the one he is asking, but given that, not have the gaava to think he can just decide things on his own without running it by someone more experienced than him.

Then there is the issue of what is smol shehu yemin. Is it a clip of someone’s grandson throwing a 20 second question to generate a binding psak for Jewry the world over? Is it a banner on yeshiva world that proclaims “He shall not be harmed”? If that is where you cull your smol shehu yemin, you will be sorely disappointed in life.

Offline skyguy918

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I'm more curious about the medical professionals supposedly behind the allow outside minyan cohort than the rabbonim. I haven't seen any names on that side of things.

Offline ushdadude

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I'm more curious about the medical professionals supposedly behind the allow outside minyan cohort than the rabbonim. I haven't seen any names on that side of things.


Are they lying?
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline skyguy918

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Are they lying?
Of course not. But it matters who they're consulting with, no? What are that person(s) qualifications vis a vis a pandemic.

I live in KGH, where currently the vast majority of shuls/rabbonim are staying in line with Rabbi Glatt et al. My Rov and many in my kehilla are itching to move to outdoor minyanim already, but won't do so without the appropriate medical backing and some level of communal unity. I passed on the 5T info to my Rov and I'm sure he's looking into all the details, but I'm personally curious to know who we'd be relying on medically speaking to open up.

Offline ushdadude

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I would like to make some points in response to the letter of Rabbi Billet.
This should not be taken in any way as being disrespectful, but as an Infectious Disease
physician who has been involved in the care of hundreds of patients with Covid 19, I
would like to share my perspective.
1. I suppose that Rabbi Billet is relying on medical authorities for some of his
statements. I am concerned that he may not have the true picture of the situation. He
states, "things have gotten slightly better." From my vantage point, things have gotten
dramatically better. The difference between now and two months ago is night and day.
Two months ago, new infections raged through the frum Jewish community like a tidal
wave. Today, I do not hear about any new cases in any of our frum communities
although, I admit I cannot be sure that there are not a few. I have spoken to Hatzalah
members who say that the calls have gone back to "preCovid" numbers. Even outside
communities which had their "tidal wave," a month ago or more, now have very few
cases. I work at Einstein. The emergency room is nearly empty. Six weeks ago it was
flooded with Covid 19 patients. I have spoken to physicians in other hospitals who share
this experience. I know it may be true that there are areas that are experiencing their
"tidal wave" now, but so far none of these have had any impact on the frum community.
 Some have quoted the death figures to show how things are still bad. However,
generally the deaths that are occurring currently are in patients who have been sick for
weeks. This does not reflect on the current disease activity.
2. Rabbi Billet concedes that "there is no question that there are ways that safe services
can take place." He then says that "once we loosen our current standards, chaos will
ensue."... Many unsupervised social gatherings will transpire."
If 95% of the community complies and 5% don't, I do not think that the 95% should be
deprived of participating in safe services, that Rabbi Billet concedes are possible. For
the 5% who take risks, that is their issue and the entire community should not be
deprived. I do not think that community leaders should feel responsibility for those who
defy the regulations and take their own risk.
3. "There is always the possibility that the worst has passed and with the arrival of warm
weather, the virus will disappear forever." . We do not have to look into the future for
any reason to be optimistic. Right now, the situation is dramatically better than it was
two months ago. We do not have to count on the virus disappearing forever to have
safe services now. With regard for the possibility that there will be a resurgence, there
may not be. Based on that argument, even if things are as they are now, we should wait
for at least a year to see if there is a resurgence. If there is, we would have to deal with
the new situation. I do not think that having safe services will cause a new resurgence.
4. With regard to those having been sick feeling a sense of immunity, I am one of those,
and although it is not certain, most, infectious Disease specialists I have spoken to feel
that it is likely that someone who had the disease this season will not likely get it again
this season.


In summary, I understand everyone's concern. Obviously, safe services can only start
when the government allows it. This can only happen when the government is also
allowing people to go back to work. Workplaces will have their guidelines to assure
safety. I am sure that our community members will go to work. Synagogues will also
have their guidelines to assure safety. Our community members should be able to go to
the synagogues, just as they go to their work.
Daniel Berman.
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline AsherO

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I thought this was really well written, regardless of whether I agree with all of what was stated.

Offline sammyp

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There is a lot to say. There is an issue of some Rabbonim being more proficient or willing to delve into metzius than others. One Rov who is a tzaddik yesod olam  when asked a technology shayla several years back about his sons friends and DVDs was told “Ich veist nisht fun yenner zachen” This may be who you ask your issur viheter or hashkafa shaalos but should not be the one who is your final word in technology.

It’s an extreme example but is extremely relevant when relying upon any Rav for a shayla that is very much dependent in metzius. Some will not be proficient in metzius but will have their “go to guy” who has a better handle on metzius to run things by. Still there have been occasions where I’ve had to move heaven and earth to demonstrate to a Rov (and their go to guy) that the metzius is different. Sometimes I’ve had to work with a younger Rav who had the time and patience to run through the literature and speak to the experts in the field and then use that to present to the Rov. One has to know the limitations of the one he is asking, but given that, not have the gaava to think he can just decide things on his own without running it by someone more experienced than him.

Then there is the issue of what is smol shehu yemin. Is it a clip of someone’s grandson throwing a 20 second question to generate a binding psak for Jewry the world over? Is it a banner on yeshiva world that proclaims “He shall not be harmed”? If that is where you cull your smol shehu yemin, you will be sorely disappointed in life.

You realize you are an apikores!? You don't need a minyan because you can't count as one of the ten anyways.