Author Topic: Is there a second wave?  (Read 100052 times)

Offline ari3

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2020, 02:40:04 PM »
Many, many people were calling for a shutdown immediately preceding and following Purim. The medical establishment is irrelevant. To say is 100% BS.
Wait the medical establishment is irrelevant. The Rabbis are irrelevant. So who is relevant?

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2020, 02:50:18 PM »
Lies? before purim? Who is being revisionist?
Dr shanik was not calling for a shutdown before purim. The head of a major health center in Lakewood was asked personally about an immunocomromised person going out on purim and he responded that covid had not yet reached Lakewood so he saw no reason not to. The Roshei yeshiva met with several doctors a few days AFTER purim and those doctors did not insist to them that everything shut down. If Dr Shanik and the others mentioned weren’t on board little else mattered. Rich Roberts, Dr Roth, and a few other don’t carry sway in Lakewood when Dr shanik says otherwise.
Read my post he was responding to. I said that within the week after Purim nobody acted to shut it down, which could have contained a lot of it. I specifically said I don’t blame anyone but most doctors were on board at that point, with one notable exception who waited until the following Wed and Thurs to finally wake up, by which time it was unfortunately too late for most. Yes, the few days after Purim almost all doctors in Lakewood (By Monday just about everyone except the one exception) were advising people to stay home and not go out.
How was everything not shut down right after Purim? At least where I lived it was, you’re telling me that a week before that there were thousands of messages here saying we should shut down?
I suggested that the difference between a decent amount of spread and the crazy spread to the extent that happened was the week after Purim. I maintain that if schools, businesses, and shuls would not have opened the following week at all a lot of the tragedy could have been averted. Once again, I’m not saying I blame anyone. But MANY were calling for that.

I don’t know where you live, I was and am talking about Lakewood
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2020, 02:50:35 PM »
Wait the medical establishment is irrelevant. The Rabbis are irrelevant. So who is relevant?

To what he said? The medical establishment wasn't brought up. Who said Rabbis?
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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2020, 02:52:13 PM »
Hindsight is 20/20.

At that point the mainstream medical establishment wasn't calling for such drastic measures.
So we listen to the mainstream medical establishment?
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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2020, 02:54:19 PM »
Wait the medical establishment is irrelevant. The Rabbis are irrelevant. So who is relevant?
Lies? before purim? Who is being revisionist?
Dr shanik was not calling for a shutdown before purim. The head of a major health center in Lakewood was asked personally about an immunocomromised person going out on purim and he responded that covid had not yet reached Lakewood so he saw no reason not to. The Roshei yeshiva met with several doctors a few days AFTER purim and those doctors did not insist to them that everything shut down. If Dr Shanik and the others mentioned weren’t on board little else mattered. Rich Roberts, Dr Roth, and a few other don’t carry sway in Lakewood when Dr shanik says otherwise.
How was everything not shut down right after Purim? At least where I lived it was, you’re telling me that a week before that there were thousands of messages here saying we should shut down?
Ok it’s getting clearer to me that you haven’t bothered to read my posts that you’re disagreeing with.

I will summarize:
I said most of the spread happened between Purim and lockdown which occurred a week and a half later, and a lockdown on that Sunday (After Purim) could have prevented much heartache. I was questioned about the possibility, and maintain that it was possible if leaders would have all been on board, which they weren’t. Now please look back and see if you have any questions.
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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2020, 02:59:03 PM »
One more point: You may be right that it couldn’t have happened, because even with all of the deaths and clear medical and government guidance some people have consistently refused to listen to the Rabbinical guidance against gatherings etc. It’s definitely possible even more people would not have listened to just Rabbanim alone, unfortunately.
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Offline ari3

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2020, 12:16:32 AM »
Read my post he was responding to. I said that within the week after Purim nobody acted to shut it down, which could have contained a lot of it. I specifically said I don’t blame anyone but most doctors were on board at that point, with one notable exception who waited until the following Wed and Thurs to finally wake up, by which time it was unfortunately too late for most. Yes, the few days after Purim almost all doctors in Lakewood (By Monday just about everyone except the one exception) were advising people to stay home and not go out.I suggested that the difference between a decent amount of spread and the crazy spread to the extent that happened was the week after Purim. I maintain that if schools, businesses, and shuls would not have opened the following week at all a lot of the tragedy could have been averted. Once again, I’m not saying I blame anyone. But MANY were calling for that.

I don’t know where you live, I was and am talking about Lakewood

I also live in Lakewood and I follow Doctors recommendations Rabbonims recommendations and Gov't rules.

The gov't didn't shut down schools or other things till Wed over a week after Purim. The mainstream doctors weren't calling for a shutdown earlier than that (Dr. Roth is an eye Dr and Mr roberts is not a practicing physician). The rabbonim didn't close shuls till that Wednesday as well.

So I have to agree with the ones accusing you of revisionist history. Quoting a few people on DDF who were calling for shutdowns at that point is ridiculous. While DDF is great I hope you don't base your life decisions on what people post on DDF.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2020, 12:31:28 AM »
I also live in Lakewood and I follow Doctors recommendations Rabbonims recommendations and Gov't rules.

The gov't didn't shut down schools or other things till Wed over a week after Purim. The mainstream doctors weren't calling for a shutdown earlier than that (Dr. Roth is an eye Dr and Mr roberts is not a practicing physician). The rabbonim didn't close shuls till that Wednesday as well.

So I have to agree with the ones accusing you of revisionist history. Quoting a few people on DDF who were calling for shutdowns at that point is ridiculous. While DDF is great I hope you don't base your life decisions on what people post on DDF.
You apparently don't know what was going on behind the scenes.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2020, 12:32:53 AM »
You apparently don't know what was going on behind the scenes.
wait for the letter coming out on Monday
["-"]

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2020, 12:33:30 AM »
I also live in Lakewood and I follow Doctors recommendations Rabbonims recommendations and Gov't rules.

The gov't didn't shut down schools or other things till Wed over a week after Purim. The mainstream doctors weren't calling for a shutdown earlier than that (Dr. Roth is an eye Dr and Mr roberts is not a practicing physician). The rabbonim didn't close shuls till that Wednesday as well.

So I have to agree with the ones accusing you of revisionist history. Quoting a few people on DDF who were calling for shutdowns at that point is ridiculous. While DDF is great I hope you don't base your life decisions on what people post on DDF.

In NY, schools were being closed the week of Purim. In PA, Purim was the last week of school. Here in FL, with minimal cases, schools were all closed either the Friday after Purim, or that was their last day. Let me be clear that this response isn't personal, but I'm using this to illustrate an issue that has been brought up numerous times before. The initial response in Lakewood cost lives. They were slow. You can blame it on Rabbonim, you can blame it on Askanim, you can blame it on Dr. Shanik, you can blame it on the government. The fact of the matter is, other people and places reacted up to 2 weeks before Lakewood shut down. To live in a bubble has it's maalos. But you can't shut out the world and then claim revisionist history because you weren't paying attention.
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Offline ari3

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2020, 12:51:19 AM »
You apparently don't know what was going on behind the scenes.
What was going on behind the scenes is irrelevant to this discussion. We were discussing what was being called for publicly by the doctors at that time.
Lies. Everyone but one major doctor called for serious restrictions.
This is plain and simplly untrue

Offline JMHO

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2020, 12:55:24 AM »
While DDF is great I hope you don't base your life decisions on what people post on DDF.
You don't?

Offline ari3

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2020, 01:00:58 AM »
In NY, schools were being closed the week of Purim. In PA, Purim was the last week of school. Here in FL, with minimal cases, schools were all closed either the Friday after Purim, or that was their last day. Let me be clear that this response isn't personal, but I'm using this to illustrate an issue that has been brought up numerous times before. The initial response in Lakewood cost lives. They were slow. You can blame it on Rabbonim, you can blame it on Askanim, you can blame it on Dr. Shanik, you can blame it on the government. The fact of the matter is, other people and places reacted up to 2 weeks before Lakewood shut down. To live in a bubble has it's maalos. But you can't shut out the world and then claim revisionist history because you weren't paying attention.
In NY schools were open thru Fri after Purim. They closed after that because Gov Cuomo closed the schools then. In FL the governor also closed schools on Fri Mar 13. In Lakewood (and other places in NJ not just in the bubble society in Lakewood) they were open thru the following Tuesday (a difference of 3 days) and that is because that is when Gov Murphy closed the schools. Additionally there were confirmed cases in NY before there were in NJ (that is why shuls in Far Rockaway etc closed before shabbos and in lakewood on wed. There were confirmed cases in 5t and there were not in Lakewood).

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2020, 01:07:14 AM »
In NY schools were open thru Fri after Purim. They closed after that because Gov Cuomo closed the schools then. In FL the governor also closed schools on Fri Mar 13. In Lakewood (and other places in NJ not just in the bubble society in Lakewood) they were open thru the following Tuesday (a difference of 3 days) and that is because that is when Gov Murphy closed the schools. Additionally there were confirmed cases in NY before there were in NJ (that is why shuls in Far Rockaway etc closed before shabbos and in lakewood on wed. There were confirmed cases in 5t and there were not in Lakewood).

In NY, there were schools closed before Cuomo closed public schools, and in FL some of the Jewish school closure announcements came before county decisions.But I'm not here to rehash the details. I commented on one thing:

No one was calling for it. Revisionist history

The fact is, it was being called for, and loudly, making the above statement patently false.
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Offline Luvisrael

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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2020, 06:45:22 AM »
Most telling to me is that the Rabbis whom determined around Purim that the danger was insufficient to close shuls are now using a much lower bar to keep the shuls closed. We must accept that one of the two decisions were mistaken.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Afrages6

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2020, 07:09:30 AM »
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-idUSKBN22M00V
If 14 new cases is a second wave then we are gonna be shut down here in NY forever

Offline Afrages6

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2020, 07:10:45 AM »
Most telling to me is that the Rabbis whom determined around Purim that the danger was insufficient to close shuls are now using a much lower bar to keep the shuls closed. We must accept that one of the two decisions were mistaken.
I think that the decision then was made without the knowledge of asymptomatic carriers and therefore with a different set of facts now its a different decision.

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2020, 08:18:21 AM »
Meanwhile in Georgia

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Is there a second wave?
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2020, 08:24:02 AM »
If 14 new cases is a second wave then we are gonna be shut down here in NY forever

Well, China does like to take a couple zeros off the end of a number :)