Is there a second wave?

[ExGingi]

Why is it whenever someone tries to explain why we should be doing things differently, we blame the government and media for why we don't need to listen now? How can you make that argument and not feel ignorant? There's is no one on DDF who isn't better than that, and that excuse needs to go away.

We are living through what might be the most politicized pandemic in mankind's history. Even HIV/AIDS politics pale in comparison.

I happened to have heard Cuomo today. The arrogance was just boundless. I might come back later to post some details.

[Ergel]

This is something the government and media are responsible for. Regular people don't understand epidemiology reports, all they know is what they hear from the government (who claims everything is science based) and the media as well as some doctors who send voice notes and claim 25% of their community will die from the pandemic.

Love it. Now we are blaming the expertsmedia and government that we aren't listening to the medical experts. As if that will give us some solace if in the end they are right

[PlatinumGuy]

Why is it whenever someone tries to explain why we should be doing things differently, we blame the government and media for why we don't need to listen now? How can you make that argument and not feel ignorant? There's is no one on DDF who isn't better than that, and that excuse needs to go away.

It is definitely the epitome of primal stupidity.

We are living through what might be the most politicized pandemic in mankind's history. Even HIV/AIDS politics pale in comparison.

I happened to have heard Cuomo today. The arrogance was just boundless. I might come back later to post some details.

It is deplorable, but totally irrelevant to the actual facts of the disease.

[ExGingi]

Can we take a pause and learn some שער הבטחון before we resume regular programming?

[PlatinumGuy]

Can we take a pause and learn some שער הבטחון before we resume regular programming?

Sure. Let's start with you explaining how בטחון is relevant?

Even with maximal בטחון one has to act out of השתדלות with the exact same level of precaution as one would take with no בטחון at all. The only difference is belief & motive.

We know that everything that happens is for the best (at least according to most rishonim), but we also know that the 'best' often does not appear so, and is painful.

[Mikes@Micro]

Can we take a pause and learn some שער הבטחון before we resume regular programming?

*GASP*
Let me check.......
Hmmmm, Nope. Doesnt seem to fit with out liberal theories.

[Ergel]

*GASP*
Let me check.......
Hmmmm, Nope. Doesnt seem to fit with out liberal theories.

So somehow bitachon allows you to violate ונשמרתם מאד לנפשותיכם?
Or maybe you are just trying to use frumkeit to rationalize your preconceived notions
We suspend everything for ספק פיקוח נפש. Why don't we first learn שער הבטחון? I don't get how we are mechallel shabbos for safek pikuach nefesh, but we can't wear masks for it

[Mikes@Micro]

So somehow bitachon allows you to violate ונשמרתם מאד לנפשותיכם?
Or maybe you are just trying to use frumkeit to rationalize your preconceived notions

I didn't say that we should not be Mishtadel. Of course you need to while balancing with Bitachon.
I just get the sense that some on the other side also have preconceived notions

[Ergel]

masks make it difficult to breathe, you make it sound like wearing a mask is not without it's own problems.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm curious what you mean by this

[Ergel]

I didn't say that we should not be Mishtadel. Of course you need to while balancing with Bitachon.
I just get the sense that some on the other side also have preconceived notions

I'm sure some on the other side have preconceived notions. Why does that have anything to do with our behavior

[PlatinumGuy]

I'm sure some on the other side have preconceived notions. Why does that have anything to do with our behavior

Reminds me of a kid who was so bitter that his parents wronged him, that he decided he doesn't have to bother brushing his teeth.

I didn't say that we should not be Mishtadel. Of course you need to while balancing with Bitachon.
I just get the sense that some on the other side also have preconceived notions

Bitchaon isn’t balanced with hishtadlus. They aren’t contradictory and you need 100% of both.

[Mikes@Micro]

I'm sure some on the other side have preconceived notions. Why does that have anything to do with our behavior

After learning about Bitachon you should not get anxious. This will allow you to think through precautions logically instead of emotionally.

This does not necessarily need to have any impact on our behavior.
 I wholeheartedly agree that we should all be wearing masks where appropriate. However I've seen people driving alone in their cars while wearing masks. How do you explain that?

As a Baal Bitachon you are more qualified to decide which precautions check out medically.

[Mikes@Micro]

Bitchaon isn’t balanced with hishtadlus. They aren’t contradictory and you need 100% of both.

+1

[PlatinumGuy]

After learning about Bitachon you should not get anxious. This will allow you to think through precautions logically instead of emotionally.

This does not necessarily need to have any impact on our behavior.
 I wholeheartedly agree that we should all be wearing masks where appropriate. However I've seen people driving alone in their cars while wearing masks. How do you explain that?

As a Baal Bitachon you are more qualified to decide which precautions check out medically.

Well said

[Ergel]

After learning about Bitachon you should not get anxious. This will allow you to think through precautions logically instead of emotionally.

Agreed - that's the main premise of shaar habitachon

This does not necessarily need to have any impact on our behavior.

Agreed

I wholeheartedly agree that we should all be wearing masks where appropriate. However I've seen people driving alone in their cars while wearing masks. How do you explain that?

Stupidity. When I expressed this to my wife yesterday, she said that people just put it on when walking to their car and then forget to take it off. I'm skeptical.

As a Baal Bitachon you are more qualified to decide which precautions check out medically.

Agreed

[ExGingi]

So somehow bitachon allows you to violate ונשמרתם מאד לנפשותיכם?
Or maybe you are just trying to use frumkeit to rationalize your preconceived notions
We suspend everything for ספק פיקוח נפש. Why don't we first learn שער הבטחון? I don't get how we are mechallel shabbos for safek pikuach nefesh, but we can't wear masks for it

Still waiting for an answer to my question, in order to understand the ספק פיקוח נפש.

My immediate family and almost anyone I know in my community had the virus and recovered. Who do you suggest we protect from whom?

[Mikes@Micro]

Agreed - that's the main premise of shaar habitachonAgreedStupidity. When I expressed this to my wife yesterday, she said that people just put it on when walking to their car and then forget to take it off. I'm skeptical.Agreed

Terrific!!! Happy we agree.
It seems like many of the arguments are about stupid/ not thinking people. If so, why bother?

[Mikes@Micro]

Still waiting for an answer to my question, in order to understand the ספק פיקוח נפש.

People dont see it as safek pikuach nefesh. And arrogance.

[Afrages6]

People dont see it as safek pikuach nefesh. And arrogance.

Not seeing it as a safek pikuach nefesh is considered arrogance?

[gozalim]

My immediate family and almost anyone I know in my community had the virus and recovered. Who do you suggest we protect from whom?

Let me give you an example from our community:
Protect who?
RCSDBL has been locked up at home since after Purim. BH feeling well. this week he was able to leave home for the 1st time for an outdoor simcha. don't you think he'd LOVE to visit his beloved 770? (וכהנה כו"כ לכאורה)

from who?
according to the guidance of our "society", he should be able to. UNTIL next week when the broader Lubavitch community has every intention of ignoring the request against visiting (because: "it's over already/c'mon/it's just me/the vulnerable are locked up/really?" take your pick)

or from:
Indoor weddings with OOT guests. 2 a night.

Or:
bochurim coming back to yeshivos (as they perhaps should) from communities that don't have the (earned-in-blood) herd immunity that we do. Is someone guiding them on the proper precautions so they don't bring in a 2nd wave? is there any accountability at all? or איש הישר בעיניו יעשה?